How Many Lions Die When a Female is Killed

[Brent Sinclair]

I thought it was our last collar a few days ago but Sniper, the Grad Student at the U of A doing the Lion Study managed to come up with 1 more.
I had a call from a land owner the other day that found a lion kill afew hundred yards from his buildings.
He had seen a lion in his calf shed 5-6 weeks earlier but I found out to late to do anything with trying to catch it.
We went to the kill and within 15 minutes put two small kittens up .
Below the rim and across the river valley we caught the female.
In Alberta law allows a land owner to kill a lion on sight on private land any time of the year, no questions, no restrictions, no limit.
This land owner reccognised it was unusual that the lion was not very concerned as they watched her from about 100 yards that first time they saw her till she moved off. They realized she had kittens only after they saw tracks in the snow by the shed.
It was legal for the land owner to kill the lion on sight just because she was there.
We collared her and let her be, she has since returned to the spot where the kittens treed.
She is an older female from the look of her gum recession and the broken canines indicating she has not been a problem lion or she would have possibaly been killed before reaching this age as the areas she is in is broken up with ranches, a provincial park with several camp grounds and a small hamlet not to far away.
Had the land owner killed her as he was entitled to do under Alberta law, two kittens would have also died.
We weighed her at 110 lbs.
Catching her close to the kill it's likely there was 10 lbs of deer in her gut so she is still 100 female.
Tree her with a client that has hunted for a week or longer and most would want to kill her, leaving two kittens to starve or be killed by coyotes.
Either way three lions are removed from the population, and how offen does this happen.

It is so important to have a female quota and to not allow anyone that has a postage stamp size peice of property or any land owner the right to kill a lion just because it is there.
Public safety is the first and formost and resolving a situation with a problem lion by killing it is acceptable to anyone with common sence.
Protecting your live stock and pets as a land owner also recieves suport from the majority of houndsmen provided the land owners allow lion hunting on their private property or lease land during the open hunting season.

How many lions die when a female is killed, I ask that question everytime I know one has been killed.

[Doogie]

I've been waiting for a better photo of the Blonde

In most, if not all western states its illegal to kill a lactating female with kittens and/or kittens. Heck in UT you can't even turn out on a female with kittens (spare that debate please we went through it last Christmas lol)

[pegleg]

I don't have any Idea the impact harvesting a female normally has. I think the number of variables plays a great role in how much it changes the local hierarchy. I've treed different adult females in as close to the exact same area as possible. I've noticed that the premium hunting grounds and those that have a higher concentration of surrounding home ranges are the most affected. those small pockets that only hold a lone lion or two will obviously be hit the hardest based on numerical averages. they will however be re established to full capacity quickly and there wont be the turf wars and there injuries that occur in the premium ranges.
those areas where the lions could almost be called migratory after prey seem to hold the highest number of lions carrying injuries and a much lower cub survival rate compared to what I've seen from those wide spread females that manage to raise their cubs year after year on the widest variety of prey.
I believe that until people really spend much more time looking at regional differences and specific animals in those regions of different ages and sex it will just be a a haphazard guess. I don't believe that lion behavior is as static as people once believed.
they adapt much better then we believed. once "mtn lion" was the hallmark name of rugged and trackless wilderness. however recent behaviors are showing the adaptation they are capable of.
there is abundant proof that they can and do live in urban environments raising cubs and mating on schedule. I know of several that have successful long term permanent ranges in urban areas.
the recent verified sightings in the eastern states correspond with the huge increase in prey. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers there were much higher then any one has guessed. the country is wooded over considerably more then the beginning of the last century and the human population much less active outdoors. the rise in prey numbers in every species and move to more concentrated livestock rearing has paved the way for less interaction between even the rural people and the cougars then was previously possible. the accounts of the rarity of raccoons, deer,turkeys and even rabbit of the early 1900's compared to today is hard to comprehend.

I know some areas where killing the right or wrong female could easily lead to three or four lion deaths within weeks. some areas the whole population may shift. I don't have any hard proof but firmly believe that once a female is removed her resident male will put in a real appearance in her home range this often leads to the last years and current years cubs being endangered. adjacent females also check out the area.
this is a side topic but mothers teaching cubs what to eat and passing on other prey is what leads to adaptation and whether they find certain ranges suitable. I have had this conversation with a native rancher who differs from alot. he has managed several large ranches and owned a few. he isn't a anti by any means but stands firm in his belief that if the lions aren't preying on his cattle he will not hunt or allow them to be hunted. he feels that if the lions you have aren't feeding on livestock"he runs a small herd of goats and sheep also" leave them alone because removal will open up the range to a stock killer if it is nearby or force a sub adult to pick up the habit as stock is considerable easier prey then wildlife.
I've seen areas where there are deer available in decent numbers but you rarely find a deer kill with the preference being almost entirely javalina mixed with smaller edibles. If your average lion age takes a dive I think your really opening yourself up to upheaval and higher mortality rate to a wider range of causes.
I'm sure most of this doesn't apply in certain areas and that in others it is the norm. just like coyote behavior varies through out their different ranges. lions are just slower to adjust but still manage.
lynx are a better example of lacking the ability to adapt then mtn. lions. they where never hunted as thoroughly or require as much feed to survive yet if their conditions aren't perfect you no longer ind them in old ranges.

[Cold Track]

How often does a female that isn't lactating get shot, but is pregnant? How many have large kittens still hanging around but maybe not with them when shot, and is she also bred? How many have a recent litter and last years dependent on her? How many will she produce in her life and will her offspring produce and so on? A LOT! I really hope here in Utah, houndsmen will learn that we can't afford to be taking females. As a hunting partner of mine says "Don't shit in your own back yard" as there are many that have been!

[black eye]

AMEN COLD TRACK!!!!!!!!!!!!
CALL EM OUT!!!!

[bearsback]

sorry didnt mean to send ya a pm but a think its bs that hunters would even want to kill a female i hate hearing about it when people do i like to chase lions and when ya kill a female the chances of catching lions the next year are even hard i think it should be tome and toms only

[Mike Leonard]

Brent ,

We know how short the actual lactation period of a female cougar is but just cuz the little guys are chewing on meat and bone doesn't mean they are weaned. But many hunters seem to thing if a female lion isn't bagged up and dripping or in the presence of spotted kittens she is barren and fair game. WRONG!

My contention has been you kill a healthy female adult lion you most likley have killed at least 3 lions and as many as 6! Yes she is still helping and mentoring sub adults 2-4 in most cases that in the event of her loss will likely perish or get in bad trouble in somebodies back yard and get shot. Also if they are big subs she is about to make the switch and send the tom kittens away and bluff the females back and breed again and start the cycle of another 2-4 kitten litter. so you see the impact could even be greater than 6.

I know i have been laughed at for saying this before even by State Biologists but they just scratch their heads and can't figure out why after all these female are killed you have so much sub adult lion problems on domestic stock, pets and maybe even people.

Why they say if them females had little kitten you would see them scampering around the forest looking for their mother after she was killed. BS! they scamper and they die quicker, coyotes, eagles, and many other things such as mean old tom cats make short work of them soft little kittens.

[pegleg]

I am glad to know I'm not the only one out there, Mike. I wondered about that argument. I've noticed that often on a lion kill you can get trail cam picks of more then one lion feeding at different times during the same night. or more often different cats feeding on the same carcass different days. I have wondered about this when you go in on a kill and run a younger cat off of a larger kill that was done very cleanly.
I know they are built for it and are taught but come one if you look at most successful kill sites they aren't all easy. so you add a real young cat in a less then perfect ambush area. i believe this might explain a good deal of lion behavior. like checking old kill sites. I once found a site littered with Montezuma quail feathers and figured it was a bobcat or hunter turned out to be a lion. granted they are as dumb as any living bird but thats not much of a meal. I couldn't tell if it was a older cat or a younger one. but it made me wonder about the circumstances leading up to it. anyway three days later I rode that ridge and struck a cat in the same spot. and while i would like to say my dogs cold trailed a three or four day track, it surely wasn't the same cat track. maybe in twenty years I'll know a little more about the impact a female has on the whole areas cat population. are some of those young cats from different females or migrating toms?
it maybe a easy way to find live game too.

[jed]

Some good, sound, biological based, input here, based on experience. . . wish there were more guys in the woods who shared those sentiments!

There is an outfitter operating in an area that I hunt that claims the following;

"We need to kill females, for the strength of the population, otherwise it's just the same genetics, and inbreeding occurs"

he's also shared with me;

"There are no resident lions here, all these lions come down from Wyoming, 30-50 miles away, I know because I watch them on my trail camera's all summer"

and his last and most telling statement (after complaining about few tracks) to me was;

The lion hunting would be a lot better if other hunters and the biologists would listen to what I'm saying, I've been managing these lions for 25 years.

Needless to say, we don't share the same opinion!

[Kenneth]

pegleg,

It seems to me that Brent might be in a pretty good position to answer some of the questions you posed if he's able to continue helping the college folks with their lion study. He has already provided lots of good information, whether he learned it from his own personal experiences or through helping with lion studies...

Ken

[Brent Sinclair]

Been very lucky to have landed this job right in my back yard.
When you run lions for several years and then have that opportunity to follow their movements in terrain that is very familier to you , you'd be surprised at just how much you don't know about them...
I look at several aspects of Cougar Management the same way a rancher would look at his cattle operation.
It's not rocket science, look, listen and learn from what is and has always been right there for you to see, it just takes some commen sence and a willingness to work with everyone and everything that makes the wheel turn to reccognise it.
I have learned alot these past months, and I hope to continue till I'm looking at the wrong end of the grass...
If it don't quit snowin up this way real soon there's likely not going to be any grass.
Almost 2 feet here the other day, close to 4 ft in one of the mountain passes on the divide...

[Mike Leonard]

Pegleg,

The advent of trail cameras has revealed some very interesting facts indeed. Quite often if you have a healthy dominant matriarchal female on her home range with her female progeny sharing that range and expanding it's borders you can end up with a whole lot of lions being dependant or semi-dependant on big momma.

Many lion hunters think female lions have territories similar to tom lions only smaller. It has been proven in numerous studies that females do not have territories they have home ranges and if these are in unmolested areas they usually shared with their female young and later their extended families. Toms are territorial and should the tom that has been the dominant breeder of that home range be killed, dies or is displaced you will most generally also lose some females and kittens as the new tom establishes himself and eradicates if possible his predesessor's genes and sets up his own shop.


Kill the domiant female of the home range and no telling at times how far reaching the effect may be.

[liontracker]

We weighed her at 110 lbs.

Nice Female.

I think this is a very thought provocing discussion here...Excellent!

[sourdough]

I can't really add much more to the above comments and have always believed, not based on thought, but what I have seen. Killing a dominate female will have far reaching effects on her offspring as well as her home range. Lion management is an important big game management tool in areas that are faced with crashing big game numbers to help stabilizer their decline, but will not help increase their number above what the land can carry. Fire suppression over the past one hundred or so year has been a huge player in the amount usable habitat. A increased number of vehicles traveling through some of the biggest migratory deer winter ranges through out the west, and we have a perfect recipe for declining deer herds. What can any of us do? I am not sure much in the way of our sport. Other than chastise those that are killing females, put more pressure on the powers to be as far as land management. Stay engaged and we will make a difference not only for the lion we love to hunt, but for the prey animals they depend on.

sourdough

[liontracker]

I think it would be nice if we hunter's, could somehow use this post, and the ideas in it, as tool, in order to develope what WE feel, are biologically sound female management straties, for the various areas, that the State G&F Agencies would then adopt, and wave goodby to the anti's for another 30-40 yrs.

I mean in all seriousness, who sees more of what is happening out there on the ground and the effects of it, than us?