What makes a cat tree?

[JDThorstad]

Hey folks I am really new to this, I've worked with bird dogs for 17 years but dreamed of hounds since I was a very little kid. I don't have any yet, but I'm trying to learn some general basics about the dogs and the game themselves. So here's a question about cats...what makes them tree? Is it pressure? Does a faster dog push a cat up a tree sooner than a slower one?

[007pennpal]

Yes and no. Yes a cat that is pressured is either treed, bayed, hidden in rocks/brush/ground or killed on the ground. No, speed alone won't catch every cat. Cats are full of tricks, backtracking, loops and running roads etc. And starting and keeping on an older track takes a real cold nose. You can listen to different guys on here and learn that there is more than one way to catch a cat. However, guys with speedy, seasoned smart cat dogs catch the highest numbers. Other guys doing it longer than me can please chime in on the subject.
Sean

[dwalton]

Dogs moving a cat track fast without looses and not over running a track is what makes a cat tree. Cat by there nature double back on there own tracks, run roads, hit blow downs and bluffs. They learn to get away from dogs that can't handle a track well by doing what comes naturally for them. Cats that are ran with dogs that bark off track, over run a track, get stuck on a bush with a lot of scent or rehash a track learn to get away from the dogs. Some of the best cat dogs that I have had were slow dogs, if you got everybody else out of there way they would catch a cat quickly. I have a area that only I hunt and I do not kill any of them, the cats get easier to tree with the more that I hunt them. Why because they never get away from the dogs I always tree them. If you are having trouble catching cats it is your dogs or where, how you are hunting. Cats are not that hard to catch, if you are having trouble catching them it is you and your dogs not the cats fault. You are the only one that can make a difference in your ability, to catch cats don't give the cat to much credit, it is you and what you do that makes the difference. Most people run dogs that are not cat dogs and will not make cat dogs, that is not to say that you can't catch some cat with them. Dewey

[South Texan]

Mr. Dewey nailed this post again, as always. Did you hear what he said "Some of the best cat dogs I have every owned were slow dogs, get everybody else out of their way and they could catch one quickly." That is what you call CONSTANT pressure, never giving the cat a chance to catch his breath. By nature a cat is not a long winded animal, and constant pressure will break him down in a hurry. A lot of people think it's all about speed, speed is good IF you can keep constant pressure on the cat, but more times than not speed is followed by looses. The more looses the longer the race is going to be and most times the cat is going to win. I'll pick constant pressure dogs over speedy dogs any day. Just my thoughts. Good post Mr. Dewey. Robbie

[dwalton]

In my opinion every time your dogs make a loose, your odd are cut in half as to treeing that cat. After a couple of looses if something does not change it is slim that you are going to see that cat. Dewey

[david]

So here's a question about cats...what makes them tree? Is it pressure? Does a faster dog push a cat up a tree sooner than a slower one?

Ya Dewey, I always marveled at how dogs one minute behind a cat can make a two minute loose, and then be 15 or 20 minutes behind the cat. I am not too good at math, and bobcats make sure to remind me of that.

I dont know how you guys can say so much with so few words. It is a gift. I wish I had it. I cant add a single thing to what has been said. Except to answer the question from a different angle.

What makes a cat tree is a combination of the bobcats genetic make up and his experience. Nature+nurture. I think we have some areas in the upper midwest where the bobcats have been selectively breeding for a non treeing cat. Or maybe it is a subspecies that at it's base does not tree. Major predators on kittens and young cats here are the fisher, the dominant male bobcat, and the bobcat hunter. For each of them, the cats that climb trees die. The cats that take shelter behind mamma in a hole or tight brush pile live. They repeat the holing behavior as older cats, and live to pass their genes on to the next generation. The climbers in that next litter get eliminated.
This is theory, of course. I cant prove it. But for what ever reason, we have bobcats whose genes tell them not to climb trees. They would rather die than climb.

A few of these cats will climb, but only as an alternative to being bitten. Bobcats have a pretty effective sprint. They cant, or wont keep it up very long. But with this type cat, you have to have a dog that can sprint faster than that. I prefer a dog that will also use his eyes with his head up. In that sense only, I believe you do need speed to get that type cat caught in a tree or on the ground. Otherwise, the dogs repeatedly get close, and the cat repeatedly gives himself the space he needs and the race lasts all day with no catch.

Most of the cats TREED in this type area seem to be small. It seems like they get a certain size and never again think about climbing.

I know of cats, as Dewey mentioned, whose genetic pre-disposition is to climb trees to escape danger. That pre-disposition can be enhanced by environmental factors. They get favorable results from climbing trees, so they do it quicker and quicker. I remember standing on a landing in the coast range and watching a small bobcat climb a big tree. The dogs were not even close to the cat. It was probably 8 or 10 minutes before the dogs got there. I believe the young cats' genes told it to climb A cat like that who is left alone will learn that this was a great strategy. A cat like that might get to the point where it climbs a tree at the sound of your rig coming up the canyon, ha ha.

Nature+nurture. I guess that is why a cat does anything at all. I guess that is why a dog does anything at all. Well, I guess it is why I do anything at all.

[JDThorstad]

Thanks for the info fellas, this is very interesting. Can we expand further on "slow" Catdogs? The reason I ask is that after going through a ton of threads on this website about running bobcats, there's overwhelming support of the fastest dog possible. What you guys are saying REALLY makes sense about dog losing a track. This makes me curious though when you see a young dog or even a fairly seasoned dog for sale that says something like "Great nose, smart, does everything else right, just too slow for bobcats, may make someone a nice bear dog." Could this "too slow" dog be an effective cat dog hunted solo without other dogs in the pack blasting past it?

[twist]

A dog that makes very few mistakes and the right CONDITIONS.

[coastrangecathunting]

STEADY PRESURE. alot of people relate a fast dog to how fast a dog can run. when some of us say fast, we mean track speed. just because a dog can fly down the road dosnt mean it can move a track. this goes to bear, deer or any other big game animal. there is alot of scent . when it comes to a cat a dog has to run at a speed that it can carry the track. i have been drinking hope this makes sence.

jc

[South Texan]

Thanks for the info fellas, this is very interesting. Can we expand further on "slow" Catdogs? The reason I ask is that after going through a ton of threads on this website about running bobcats, there's overwhelming support of the fastest dog possible. What you guys are saying REALLY makes sense about dog losing a track. This makes me curious though when you see a young dog or even a fairly seasoned dog for sale that says something like "Great nose, smart, does everything else right, just too slow for bobcats, may make someone a nice bear dog." Could this "too slow" dog be an effective cat dog hunted solo without other dogs in the pack blasting past it?

JD, what I was referring to in the post above is after the cat has been jumped and the dogs are running him. That's when the CONSTANT or STEADY pressure comes in. A lot of dogs at this point get to excited, they know the cat is close, they're smelling him stronger, and they try to run the cat faster than their nose will allow, causing them to over run the trail, thus causing a loose. Every time you make a loose, the cat is gaining ground on the dogs (getting farther ahead of the dogs). Then the dogs have to try to take the slak out of the trail and catch back up to the cat again. This is when we are talking about the constant or steady pressure dogs. Dogs that run the cat (without looses) and never giving the cat a chance to catch his breath or get a lead on the dogs. Keeping pressure on the cat at all times, then you will go to breaking the cat down. The faster your dogs can run the cat and keep steady pressure on, the faster the cat will break down, but...it doesn't have to be a real fast dog to do this.

In your post above people say "Great nose, smart, does everything right, just to SLOW for a bobcat dog. May make good bear dog." They might be talking about when they are trailing a cat, before the cat has been jumped. Some dogs will just bawl around in one spot and not move a trail or get to one spot in the trail where maybe a cat has caught something to eat and spent some time in one spot and the scent is stronger, and the dogs get hung-up on this spot. You HAVE to have dogs that keep a trail moving and not getting hung-up, ya gotta always be moving the trail forward. If the dogs are not moving forward at all times your probably never going to jump the cat to put him to running. I (just my preferance) always liked 2 or 3 dogs trailing and then have 3 or 4 dogs (jump dogs) out front of the trailing dogs, trying to jump the cat out ahead. I'm getting off track myself, but this might be what they are referring to when they say "SLOW DOGS", dogs that want move a trail forward and NOT referring to after the cat has been jumped. These are just my thoughts and probably don't amount to a hill of beans, but maybe it will enlighten ya a little as to slow cat dogs. Robbie

[Dads dogboy]

JDthorstead

Please go to

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=22403

to find even more very good information to go along with the great tips and insights posted here by South Texan and the others!

C. John Clay

[Nolte]

Most of the cats TREED in this type area seem to be small. It seems like they get a certain size and never again think about climbing.

David,

I totally agree with you on the treeing deal on larger cats in this upper midwest turf. We pretty much randomly treed a big cat this year by pretty much luck. It was somewhere around 35lbs or so. It was the second time we ran him and the first I'm sure he did the same thing but the dogs couldn't locate. This time I was in there with him and just stayed put where they bogged down. It was a cat and dogs race track in there. As I was sitting there figuring he snuck away, I heard him growl a little bit and I located him. At the tree he went up there wasn't a dog or cat track within 10 feet, but there was a leaner and I think the jumped over to that tree and went way up to the top. You could tell he had been up that leaner at least twice in the race before. Just another sneaky trick they can pull.

Had another cat about the same size as this one in the same area. He showed up after we got the first one. I've probably tried him a dozens times and he's still out there making tracks and making me look foolish. If he would have climbed, he'd probably be gone by now. Even wannabees like me can get lucky if you get a cat that tends to tree.

[david]

I heard him growl a little bit and I located him. At the tree he went up there wasn't a dog or cat track within 10 feet, but there was a leaner and I think the jumped over to that tree and went way up to the top.

Man Nolte, I wish I had a locator like you in my pack. Can you imagine dogs that routinely locate a bobcat in a mess like that? That pretty much describes the bobcat locating tree dog of the Great Northwest. Not a track within 10 feet of the tree! Probably not a track on that tree within 10 feet of the ground. Some of those dogs are magical in their locating ability.

Everything goes quiet. Everyone is checking this possibility and that possibility. One old girl moves down wind, stops and faces the wind. She's got him, but not sure where. She goes back in. Checks this possibility and that possibility. I have seen this process take over 20 minutes. Finally, she figures it has got to be this tree right here. You have not heard a dog open for at least 10 minutes and then that beautiful locating bawl that makes a shiver run down your spine. Then she locks it in, and her pals say, ya, that's the one I thought he was in. Let's make these mountains ring!

It is a beautiful thing. It is a very beautiful thing.

[shawn cole]

nose and brains

[runninman]

Getting a cat jumped and running is the key to catching. Fast dogs will always b better than slow dogs but remember a dog is fast in his mind not in his feet. A dog that learns to turn with the cat wen it doubles back and can keep it jumped. A jumped animal leaves 1000 times more scent than a bobcat thats walking circles around them track stratling dogs. Wen he stinks a dog can run wide open if he knows wat to do with it. If ur dogs dontever run bobcats and they just trail hot tracks u might need to choose a breed known for getting bobcats jumped and running. Im sure I left out a bunch that only time in the woods will teach u.