Government Hunters in az taking game from sportsmen

[luckylqh]

I heard through the grapevine that the azgfd called in government trappers to a certain area that had a good lion population,approximately10 square miles,they supposedly trapped and killed 13 lions in a short period of time all due to a few deer hunters complaining that the lion were eating all their deer.Do they really think that lion eat as many adult deer as coyotes eat newborn baby deer and elk antelope and such? What I was wondering is why the azgfd would pay gov.hunters and trappers with money made from hunters to do something that most lion hunters would do for free ,why doesnt the azgfd have a list of lion hunters to call in if there is a problemed area or a stock killing lion somewhere,in my opinion government hunters are taking lion from the lion hunter and are double dipping because they spend time training dogs on government time and then sell a lot of those dogs that actually should belong to the state government. I feel that gov. hunter and trapper positions should be terminated,the state of arizona could get this done for free with a little effort. please post some replies so I can see how others feel about this . Im thinking about going to the azgfd with this proposal and would like to know how much support I will have thanks

[Grzyadms4x4]

I think you are dead on. I know a few lion hunters that do depredation work for AZGFD and they would of happily gone and helped out.

-Zach

[Big Mike]

Ussually when this happens its in places where there has been little to no sport harvest. Dont know if what you is true or where but NM has done some simular type lion removal and it was in places where the sportsman weren't getting enough harvest

[Mr.pacojack]

I would say before you start stirring the pot , you should find out for sure...not just thru the grapevine.

[Shorty]

I can also tell you that the government doesn't pay these folks as well as most might think. Selling a few dogs is just another way of making ends meet. Besides these hunters raise their own dogs or buy them. If the dogs belonged to the government you'd have to pay another person just to manage that program.

[kickemall]

In a perfect world your probably right. But - I don't know for sure about Az. but most gov. hunters/trappers are employed by the federal government through the U.S.D.A. with little or no state money involved. So that makes it free for Az. fish and game to use them. The biggest problem I see with volunteer hunters is that the state has little or no control over them. When they use them they would accept a certain amount of liability for their actions. Also, for them to screen out the good ones would be a time consuming project and then getting them to answer their phones in the middle of the night or when their out of town, etc . would be challenging to say the least. I see your point but like Pacojack said, check your source first. Good luck.

[AZDOGMAN]

13 lions in 10 sq miles dont sound right. Where did this supposedly take place?

[Big Horn Posse]

State agencies have contracts with US Wildlife Services. They will contact them before they will a contracted houndsman. I know in certain areas in WY if livestock is killed by a trophy game animal (lion or black bear) they will call Wildlife Services before a contracted houndsman due to contract agreement obligations. Other areas like the one I am in there is no contract obligations on trophy game depredations and the Game and Fish can call who ever is available at the time. Predator depredation on wildlife like deer is not done here so I don't know the protocal on that. Being as it would be a wildlife issue and not a livestock one it only makes sense they would use US Wildlife Services and not a contracted houndsmen to control the lions. I don't understand what you mean about the government trapper getting paid for it and not the houndsman. Any houndsman that has a contract with the G&F gets paid as well. They do not let you volunteer to do it for nothing. You have to be contracted and they will pay you for your services. Least here in WY. They could do a management hunt which would sell special management tags to harvest more cats in the particualr area, but it would have to be approved by the game and fish commision and a lot more B.S. involved. A lot easier to deal with the issue inter-agency than do a management hunt.

[Benny G]

I heard through the grapevine that the azgfd called in government trappers to a certain area that had a good lion population,approximately10 square miles,they supposedly trapped and killed 13 lions in a short period of time ...in my opinion government hunters are taking lion from the lion hunter and are double dipping because they spend time training dogs on government time and then sell a lot of those dogs that actually should belong to the state government. I feel that gov. hunter and trapper positions should be terminated,the state of arizona could get this done for free with a little effort. please post some replies so I can see how others feel about this . Im thinking about going to the azgfd with this proposal and would like to know how much support I will have thanks

Perhaps you should know ALL of the facts before you start whining and crying. As for enlisting "the sport hunters", realistically, how many people are there that can just go out and take care of a problem lion or ten? This just sounds like more unfounded gossip BS. Go out hunting and kill a few on your own. The last time I was in AZ, there were still around 15 lions left that were just waiting on guys like you.

[luckylqh]

hey guys im not tryin to stir the pot,I just think its bullshit that this is taking place ,I talked to azgfd yesterday and they wanted to know how and where i found this out ,I am not at liberty to let this information get out but it came from a very reliable source,and azgfd wouldnt admit it but they sure tried to avoid the subject.The guy I heard this from said they would ,as far as all the lion experts on here I would like to go hunting with a few of you guys so I could learn how to hunt like you apparently you are so good you will be treeing 20 lion a year even after our so called game management professionals make them extinct

[Big Horn Posse]

Whether the AZGF will admit to it or not has nothing to do with anything. The reason they asked you where you heard of it does not mean it is happening. They simply want to know the source of the rumor. I have never heard of a G&F agency trapping, hunting or anything else to reduce lion numbers due to deer loss. That is not something they will spend time and money doing. Like I said before if it was livetock loss they would contract a gov trapper or houndsman to deal with lions causing damage. If they believe an area needs to be managed better they will issue more tags for that area or raise the quota depending on how your state manages their lion hunts. Let me ask you this, is the area you believe this is happening mainly private or public? Is it near subburbs or a town? Has there been lion conflict in these areas? I think you have your information wrong. The last thing you should do is place blame on contracted employees of the AZGF whether it be contracted gov trappers or contracted houndsmen that are doing the job they are there to do. This post is not in good taste and to start rumors or pass rumors on is not the way to handle any issue you have with AZGF or their contracted employees. If you are not willing to reveal the source then I take it as a rumor and nothing more.

[TomJr]

There are areas of AZ with that high of a lion population... I live in one of them. But no one is trapping or being hired to kill them. I have helped make a dent in them over the last three years though

But more will just come up from mexico. The lions in my area are smallish 100lbs seems to be a top male. Got one in its prime(6 years old) last year that was in the low 90s. Point is these are not trophy lions maybe because there are too many? or maybe just genetics? or maybe its food?

We recently had a fire and the lion and deer population has crashed hard in the burned area... but those that were not killed have moved into unburned areas so still plenty about. Several deer and one lion and a bear that I know of were killed directly by the fire, it was very fast and hot. Deer were still about in good numbers before the flooding began but again several deer and Javalina got caught in the flooding and killed.

The deer are moving back in now but still have not gotten any lion sign around my house. I figure by next year things will be better than ever for deer and lion here. Once the second growth coming up from the roots of the burned off trees gets 5-6 feet high there should be enough cover for them again. The oaks are between 2-3 feet high already.

On the plus side there are more foxes than ever they keeping my dogs in shape!

[luckylqh]

ok maybe I posted this wrong! I was looking for replies from people who live and hunt in Az opinions from people outside our state dont really concern me but I know for sure that this is not a rumor the source of this info has seen snares and traps set for these lions and as far as game and fish goes there are very few of them that know their ass from a hole in the ground,if they did they would be trying to reduce coyote population and not mountain lion! I find baby deer and elk ate quite often by coyotes ,10 times as many as lion eat,a lot of you must be ranchers ,they are the only ones I know of that would be ok with this situation

[luckylqh]

no disrespect meant toward ranchers I know calves are their bread and butter

[Benny G]

Just because I don't live in Az any longer doesn't mean that I don't hunt there, or know what goes on to some extent. I'm not taking any sides with the Game Wardens, your post seemed to be directed at the Government guys just trying to do their jobs and make a living. As for killing the lions into extinction, the Feds had the same bounty system on lions and coyotes as they did on wolves and grizzlies. I'm also not saying that the lion population can't be crippled in a given area, because it can. I have seen it happen. If what you are concerned about is true, take a chill pill and find another piece of country to hunt. Az has millions of acres of prime lion habitat. The population issues are way bigger than the game department. Perhaps you should raise hell with the US Forrest Service for evicting the ranchers, and doing away with the most stable prey base that the lions had left. Since you live down there on that hot dry desert, make a road trip and find a track at Salome, or anywhere along the CAP canal. Just take a breath and relax. There will still be lion tracks in Az.