What price would b worth being able 2 run in wolf country?

[dmunk]

I'm from idaho and have seen all around me the problems caused to hound hunters by the re-introduction of the wolf. My question is this: (IF) there were a dog created or existing that proved it could consistently run with, and protect a pack of hounds while in wolf country, what would a fair price be for that animal to an average hounder? Also assume in most situations it would take at least two of these dogs in each pack to assure safety. I know the debate of if such a dog exists has already been discussed on here. Assume it does, what would u pay for one?

[Brent Sinclair]

Wolves are capable of and do kill there own...... so in my opinion there is NO hound that is capable of fighting with a single wolf or a pack and coming out the winner....
Wolves hunt in packs for a reason...they have evolved to become one of the top predators that are at the top of the food chain and will in most case kill what ever they set out to hunt,hound moose even a grizzly!!!!
I just came off a hunt in BC with an outfitter that runs in wolf country, he uses orange vests on all his hounds, the ones used by bird hunters avalible in Cabelas and other outdoor stors ....he keeps these in the house at night and with his hunting gear in the truck...he feels it gives alot more protection from wolves as they MAY not be so inclined to attack a hound in a bright orange vest with alot of human smell...Just a method he feels is worth trying...
If you hunt in wolf country your going to be taking that chance of loosing hounds,BUT every area and every wolf pack is different....I have hunted lons right where there are fresh wolf tracks and have yet to see a wolf or where the tracks have come close to the hounds when they are on a track ....these wolves get shot at and are close to ranch buildings where there are dogs alot of the time and that I believe is why they are little problem in this area of Alberta...
Your best insurance is kill them where is legal every opportunity you can..

[huntfish8]

That bird hunting vest sounds like a good idea!! I might just have to go buy a few...

[Andy]

It seems one of the best ways to try to combat wolf problems (in places where it is legal to hunt them) would be to record some hounds at a tree and call with that sound on a foxpro or electric caller. This would elimate wolves who do respond to the sound of dogs barking and what wolves weren't killed would probably become wary of the sound of a pack of dogs, I know if you call coyotes alot in a certain area they quickly learn to run fast from the sound of a call. Just a thought I don't live in wolf country, this highly theoretical, it seems like it should work well though. If you always hunt in a particular area you could probably teach a pack to be very scared of the sound of dogs. Anyone ever tried this?

[George Streepy]

It seems no one wants to answer the question you are asking. But if there was a breed of dogs that could run with hounds and take down wolves it would be worth quite a bit. It would also get the reputation of being the toughest dog on Earth and would be quickly filling all the trailer parks in the country to boost the "tough guys". The hard part (if a dog like this existed) would be getting people to realize it and use it.

I will start it out by throwing out a price of $500 to $1000 each as puppies. Sure the monetary and emotional value of a good pack of hounds is a lot higher but you still have to hope a pup will turn out to be what you need.

[RIFLEMAN]

Andy,

It seems one of the best ways to try to combat wolf problems (in places where it is legal to hunt them) would be to record some hounds at a tree and call with that sound on a foxpro or electric caller.

The wolves in the area of Idaho that I hunt in have stopped responding to distress calls, so folks are in fact putting recordings of treed hounds in their FoxPros and having success with the strategy. This will hopefully educate the wolves and teach them that the sound of hounds no longer means that there is competition in their territory, but rather that people are nearby.

[Brent Sinclair]

It seems no one wants to answer the question you are asking. But if there was a breed of dogs that could run with hounds and take down wolves it would be worth quite a bit. It would also get the reputation of being the toughest dog on Earth and would be quickly filling all the trailer parks in the country to boost the "tough guys". The hard part (if a dog like this existed) would be getting people to realize it and use it.

I will start it out by throwing out a price of $500 to $1000 each as puppies. Sure the monetary and emotional value of a good pack of hounds is a lot higher but you still have to hope a pup will turn out to be what you need.

There never will be a breed of dog that is capable of comming out on top in a conferentation with a wolf or a pack of wolves.
It's not possiable....wolves have evolved over thousands of years and are top dog for that reason.
These animals are built from the ground up to be killers and do just that.
Skin one out , look at the mussle in the jaws, the molars and canine teeth as well as the chest .....
I have seen where a pack of wolves (4) killed a mature healthy 7' class grizzly that was on an elk kill.....that was a fall grizzly of about 450 lbs and capable of killing and carrying off a 1000 lb plus livestock carcass!!!!!!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

One dog that may do ok one on one would be the stalk protction dog from Afganistan are. (I don't know the name of the breed) They are mean, killing anything that come into the stock herds. A neighbour has one and it did kill a single bitch wolf two winter ago. They look quite similar to a wolf tall and lanky. Hunting around her place is as dangerous as running with the wolves because dogs are fair game as well. I am waiting for the day I see that dog off the property so I can put a hole it it. I am tired of worring about my dogs.

[George Streepy]

There never will be a breed of dog that is capable of comming out on top in a conferentation with a wolf or a pack of wolves.
It's not possiable....wolves have evolved over thousands of years and are top dog for that reason.
These animals are built from the ground up to be killers and do just that.
Skin one out , look at the mussle in the jaws, the molars and canine teeth as well as the chest .....
I have seen where a pack of wolves (4) killed a mature healthy 7' class grizzly that was on an elk kill.....that was a fall grizzly of about 450 lbs and capable of killing and carrying off a 1000 lb plus livestock carcass!!!!!!

Brent, I realize that. The question was hypothetical as far as I could tell. I don't believe it would be possible either. Even if a super dog existed, just because you turn it out with your hounds, doesn't mean it will be there in that critical moment when it is needed. And the value of the breed wouldn't be much higher than any other breed of working dog.

If you can't get rid of the wolves then I think the best way to help the problem is to educate them. Which many have talked about on here. But I have only seen a couple wolves in my lifetime and none of them were sticking around very long.

[Brent Sinclair]

Good points George..... your right I agree educating the wolves is one of the only ways I see it working where you can not kill them...that will take time but is a means of helping to keep your hounds out of harms way, I have seen the dog that Doug has mentioned and they are mean tough animals....
I was on a Polar Bear hunt in the arctic a few years back and the sleigh dog we were using were a line of 1/2 wolf cross the guide had raised with his grand father for several years....we had 19 dogs pulling two komiiks....the guide told a couple stories where he had his dogs get messed up with wolves on the ice at night and the wolves killed the dogs and they were not tied.
Another time he put 5 dogs on a bear to bay it for a client..the bear was fighting the dogs and wolves moved in hearing the fight ,they killed two dogs and the client killed 3 wolves and the bear...he said even with his dogs having been bred wolf cross they can not win !!!

Good Hunting

[shawn cole]

kengals are the dog to have look at them on youtube

[montananative]

Our neighbors has a whole pile of goats at one time, and they ran 3 Great Pyrenees with there goats at all times. These dogs were not petted, or fed directly by humans. they would put there feed pales in the creek bottom and the dogs would go find it. All they did was watch those goats and if a car drove by, or anything came close to those goats those dogs would immediately start moving them away.

The mexican they had to watch these goats swore up and down that those 3 dogs fought off a bear that came into the goat herd up in Helmville county in W. Montana, and i believed what he told me and how it went down.

The pure size of the Pyrenees, the breeding background of already beeing a gaurd dog, and there pure grit and toughness may work. However the problem is you would have to run a pack of your own gaurd dogs along with your hounds. one gaurd dog is not going to cut it when you have anywhere from 4-10 wolves coming in, all your going to have is an extra dead dog to worry about.

But one on one, i think on of those Pyrenees males could have held there own on a smaller wolf

[dmunk]

Thanks for the replys! I have seen wolves in action first hand (not on dogs), and am fully aware at how unbelievably powerful they can be. I'm not suggesting I currently know of or own a dog capable of consistently taking on a wolf or wolves, However I have studied canines for many years, and am not totally convinced that with the right breeding and man made accessories (collar,vest,etc) It couldn't be done? Wolves are very smart, the dog wouldn't necessarily have to always kill every wolf it encounters, just make a good enough stand the wolf or wolves back off, or allow enough time for the hunter to arrive. Several people mentioned the Kangal in their responses. This was one of the principle dogs in the cross i was entertaining. They are well known for killing old world wolves. As a member of the guardian class, they bond strongly to whatever animals/people they are raised with and will fight to the death to protect them. There are many good guardian breeds, but nearly all are far too slow to keep up with a pack of hounds. Kangals are the exception, with a fast top speed and good endurance.
The truth i believe is that wolves are going to be here for the forseeable future, and will probably end up spreading to other currently wolf free western states. I liked the idea of hunting them off of recorded hound calls! Anything that will change their instinct/reaction to coming in and killing a bawling dog.
Even the breed i am picturing would not stand a chance with multiple (3 or more) wolves. These dogs would be ran in pairs. Question: Could regular Cat/Bear hounds be relied on to help out In a Scrap?

[Nolte]

Dmunk,

I think it's a good deal to try and figure out an "outside the box" way to protect our dogs but I think it's a losing proposition. Here are the reasons and this is just my opionions based on WI hunting;
- We usually hunt bear when it's warm in the summer. Any type of catch vest or protection is going to heat up the dog pretty quick unless conditions are optimal. Hog doggers seem to use them on catch dogs (and maybe others) but the races seem a little shorter than your typical bear run.
-Cat hunting here is done in the winter. A dog needs to be on it's A-game and really tuned it to catch cats semi-consistently. Slowing them down a micro-second is going to hurt the chances of catching a cat.
-Protection dogs are just that, for protection. What happens when your pack inadvertantly mixes in with another pack. It's going to be bad. From what i've seen on those tougher type dogs, they win. Hounds wouldn't have a prayer to survive. At least is in a mixed pack hound fight, hounds got a chance to survive. Might get cut up but they'll walk away. And many times there won't even be a fight. If there was a protection dog, there will be and it will be ugly, every time.
-What do you do when you want to hunt with a buddy. His dogs won't mix with yours. Or what happens when you want a friend to catch your pack on the road because the bear bailed. Ain't going to happen with a protection dog accompanying them.
-You asked about the price and this is my best answer. Doing this is going to cost at some poing your best dog or your best young prospect. If I have a dog that might be owly I either remove it or only hunt it dogs I know won't be a problem (females, sit back tree dogs etc). With a protection dog you've got that dog in the mix every time. It's like lighting a campfire with a bucket of gasoline close by. Most times you're probably OK, but it just takes one tiime and boom.

I'd say guys lose a dog around here about once every 5 to 10 years. Just a guess. I'd rather try to avoid them or reduce conflicts as best I can or introduce them to my bumper when given a chance. Try to stay as close to the hunt/dogs as possible when there are just a few dogs out. When it's legal, I'll be going after them with all other methods.

[Pops]

there are several incorrect assumptions being made
1. a wolf is a wolf. that just isn't true ALL of the livestock guard dogs (LGDs) w/ reputations as one up wolf killers are facing small & medium sized wolf species/subspecies. for example the 90-140# Kangal & Boz wolf killers face the Iranian/Indian wolf which is a small species that rarely exceeds 60# & NEVER exceeds 75#. the Koochee dog of Afghanistan mostly face the Indian wolf however in the Pamir mountains they do face the short stocky himalayan wolf which is a medium species. the native rocky mountain timber wolves were a medium subspecies until the introduced canadians (a LARGE subspecies) extincted them. the red wolves of north carolina are a small species & the mexican grey straddles the line although it technically is a medium subspecies.
also the TYPICAL social structures of small, medium & large species is very different. the large species/subspecies are the only ones that will form superpacks in excess of 2 dozen animals that may not be directly related to the alpha pair. most pack members will be siblings & descendants of the alpha pair. although rare, wandering adolescent wolves will sometimes be permited to join the pack. killing the alpha pair results in a beta pair (usually siblings of the alpha pair) taking over leadership. some members may leave but the core pack remains. large wolves typically have large litters (6-10) & moderate to low recruitment. recruitment is low because they tend to prey on larger more dangerous prey & territorial conflicts are more violent. both cause higher death rates in pups before they reach full adulthood. if they survive their second winter they will generally live several more years. so even w/poor recruitment population growth is surprisingly fast. generally less than half of a litter reaches their 2nd year w/ 25-30% being normal. because of the availability of vacant territory & high game populations the canadians in the yellowstone region had higher than normal recruitment similar to small & medium wolves.
mediums & smalls typically form nuclear family packs that almost always are made up entirely of descendants of the alpha pair. killing the alpha pair almost always results in dispersal & the establishment of new packs. pack size varies depending on when the alphas force their pups to disperse. small wolves typically force dispersal in the pups first fall (so they only have two mouths to feed over winter) or the following spring (so they can focus on the new pups). medium wolves typically force dispersal the following spring or the following fall (medium wolves are generally better about helping raise the new litter than small wolves which are more likely to kill the new litter). litter size is smaller (3-6) but recruitment is better because the diet is more varied & the wolves less aggressive. generally half to 3/4 of a litter will reach adulthood.
2. the next incorrect assumption is that the dogs are normally facing wolves one on one all alone in the wilderness in a "fair" match up. the truth is they are worked in groups comparable to normal pack size for the area. additionally they have an armed sheperd or two backing them up. AND they purposefully hunt wolves to keep them afraid of people & their property. and the match is far from fair, as the SMALLEST "wolf killers" are the 90# females in the various and average size is 100-140# and the largest upwards of 180# AND they are facing wolves that max out at half their size. it is rather the equivalent of 60# hounds fighting 30-35# coyotes. OTH wolves being wild animals are less inclined to stick in a fight like a dog often will, so if the dog fights hard enough they will usually back off.

i don't think it's hopeless, but i don't think running LGDs w/ the hounds is the answer. red wolves in NC are not a problem because the bear & deer dogger run packs as big or bigger than the wolf packs & the animals are of comparable size. I believe the better bet is to build a new strain of big game dog. i believe the dog needs to be the size of a great dane (28-36" 90-150#) w/ the fighting heart of a pit bulldog, a GOOD nose, and most importantly the packing instinct of the foxhounds used by the red jacket crowd. i firmly believe the widespread effort to make every dog a lead dog has undermined the safety of the packs run in wolf country. if every dog is trying to do it all on their own they string out because every single dog has it's own pace. but if you build a pack as a team w/ strong packing instinct they stay together & fight together. put that into a dog w/ enough fight & size to back off a wolf and i think you'll see losses drop.
I also firmly believe the use of recorded hounds for shooting wolves will help to teach them to leave the dogs alone & probably will do as much or more than the right dogs will.