Montana dry grounding (bobcat)

[newby]

Dewey,
That's some good readin and I'll definitely come ride along with you sometime...hopefully sooner than later, as long as you promise not to make me put a shock collar on. Talk with you soon. Darin

[al baldwin]

Catdog good post. Recall when cross was made that produce a female call sister ( skinner dogs grandmother) my partner at the time, thought i may be making a mistake. Breeding to a female produced by a bear hunter, but I had hunted with that female. I liked what I seen, plus had studied her lineage & read that a lot of the dogs behind her did well. That sister female is buried in back yard, never considered selling her, as stated earlier made a natural box dog at a very young age, had a voice numerous admired, sit down about 10 ft. from tree and chop steady as long as needed. Had a nose that allowed her to trail with the best I ever hunted her with, good disposition, sit and stay on command, never need a leash when leaving a tree. And a family pet. No she wasn,t perfect & there were faster jump track dogs than her, but I sure enjoyed hunting her. Yes Dewey your Pepper female & Tim,s Suzie are both distant descendents off that sister dog. And no I don,t own anything like her today, but sure wish I did. Just had to let hunters know all dogs hunted on bear are not dumb aligators Thanks & good hunting to all Al Baldwin

[Todd Davis]

Tim, good talkin with ya and thanks for all the info. I hope the cross between OL Butch and my Brandy dog have the success that you and Dewey had with the similar cross.
Todd

[BlazeNBrat]

Lets get back to the topic at hand. We can all agree to disagree BUT, one thing I think we can all AGREE on is when you travel 2000 miles plus, things are going to be different. The habitat is going to be different, soil types, weather, temp, elevation, cat DENSITIES and so on.

I dont think its a coincidence that where guys are making cat rig dogs are some of the highest bobcat densities in the country. Can guys bring them same dogs up here in the spring, summer, and or fall and rig cats? probably, but one thing to keep in mind is its illegal to do that. Thats just not the way its done here. One other thought is, this year being an exception, on a normal year your not going to bring a rig dog up here in the winter and catch any more cats than we do. I have a hard time believing that your dogs are that much better than everyone elses, period.

Another variable here is the hunters them selves. What one guy calls a cold track may be a pretty darn fresh one to the next guy. Our cold tracks here just cant be ran with heads up out of the air running, with one exception of a track that is singled out they can run down with there eyes untill it gets mixed up amung other tracks, thats here anyway, maybe there but not here. I've seen some real good dogs hunt here, running and tree dogs that can and will make short work of a bobcat but they dont start a track head up unless it was just there.

I had a trigg/tree dog cross I got from out west that was a finished out dog when I got her. She could damn sure run and tree game but she had an issue with not wanting to put her head down and COLD trail to get one going. She ended up being no use to me and I got rid of her because of that flaw and lack of game production. I tried starting some cold tracks with her and she wouldnt put that head down. To me a throw in dog that runs with head up hot track are a dime a dozen, not hard to find. Around here we need track grubbers to get one going; then pick that head up and fly when it gets warmed up. Not going to catch much "around here" if they cant cold trail. Just the way it gets done around here in the winter.

Just some thoughts as I sit layed up inside today with a head cold

[twist]

slycat, tell Brandy to hurry up Butch hasnt had a girl friend since he moved to Montana 3 yrs ago. lol I will promise one thing if we do make the cross these pups will be just flat out FASTTTTTT. Andy

[Tim Pittman]

Blazenbrat--is ''around here" Idaho or MN??[Minnesota??]I'm horrible about the abbreveation thing.To me a coldtrack is one they have start with their head down also,I know for a fact that other conditions as well as time age a track,to make it hard to trail.Also have seen some of my coldnosed dogs[I don't keep them if they're not]make a track look worse than what it is at times.I probably wouldn't have known this unless I seen another dog get in there and walk off with it.When this happened a few times I starting scratching my head[got me to thinking].Here's what my personal opinion is,I don't think it's gospel!!If a guy has aline of dogs which have worked for him in the conditions he hunts,I think by selecting for the kind of dog you described and breeding for that within aline[linebreeding]along with an outcross[from some linebreeding also]can cause a hybred vigor in the first generation cross that can have some amazing results.The key/question is can we preserve that by going back in pretty tight and hold onto it for many generations??I believe to be possible,based on some of the guys who've had tremendous success with various breeds of dogs that this has been proven on.If I thought one guy[s[ had it figured out in its entirety and had a monoply on it I guess I wouldn't be opened minded enough to try any other dogs,but Iknow there are several folks around the country who've put a great deal of effort/time into their programs who have what they want and striving for better,and to those are the ones I like to aquire dogs from.Hopeing to better myself and pack,I always like to think it could be bettered here and there.

[BlazeNBrat]

Tim, Minnesota is correct. I agree with what you said. I dont think it pays to be close minded and a person should always strive for better.

I was thrown for a loop last night after talking with a reliable source ( not that you guys arnt, I just dont know you). So maybe there has been a few dogs out there that could take a 2 day old lion or harder yet a bobcat track at a drift. Still hard for me to believe. But, lets talk about that. If you have ever owned a dog such as that, what are some of the pit falls of that type of dog? And can you breed for that trait and get the results you want every time?

Tell me the pros and cons? Even tho a dog might be able to do that I'm still not convinced it would be a better all around dog to own.

[dwalton]

Blaze: I going to jump in . Tim is better at explaining than I am. Here is my two cents.Tim told me a conversation with a older cat hunter that I have a lot of respect for about these dogs and I realized that we were not getting across What we are really trying to. Correct me if I an wrong. You look at what we are trying to explain that I breed for as a drifting dog. That is not it at all. I will keep what I call a drifter once in a while but will not breed for or to a dog that does that. Two of them in a pack will blow your track a way. What I want in a bobcat dog is a dog that can run a cold track. Which is like most people not seeing a cat hold its scent can't believe it can be done. A drifting dog to me is one that goes and looks for the cat and is way off the track at times. I want the dogs to be within 5 to 10 feet of the track at all times and running it with head up on a cold track. Under some conditions east and west this can not be done. Then a dog has to put its nose in the track and work it. Here is a example.. three years ago when my females were in heat I hunted two males and two one year old pups litter mates. I put them out on a frozen in bobcat track that was at least made the evening or afternoon before. The two older dogs went down the track giving tail but not opening. Those two came back in a little while and had never opened on the track. From the GPS the pups 1 year old were out of there. I went in behind them to find a track to see if I should correct them for off game. I walked there tracks out for 1\2 mile until they hit the road again they were never 5 feet from the cat track and moving fast. I got in the truck followed them up the road 3\4 of a mile they left the road on the cat still frozen in track not over running it on the road 10 feet. I turned back in the older dogs walking them down the track behind the pups. The old dogs still could not take that track. The pups took that track across the canyon and lost it in the drip. What I look for and breed for is a dog that takes a cold track and works it at a run or lope and almost never but a few feet off the track. That does not mean that in a major loose that they don't have to get out there to find it again. I will not keep a dog that is a wild running dog [drifter] very long. When I choose pups I do not keep that one that is always moving hunting a track. Most people see that and commit on the hunt that pup has. To me it is like a ADS child they can never hold still. They does not have the disposition to be my kind of bobcat dog. I say it again what I want is not a drifting dog it is a dog that takes a cold track goes fast, not far off a track, it will put its head down and work a track but only as a last resort. Thanks for reading I hope this explains thing a little better. There are no perfect dogs or people. My dogs are far from that. I have seen outstanding things from hounds and know what works for me and know how hard it is to breed for. Dewey

[slowandeasy]

steady progress, not spead, and few loses lead to jumped and treed critters. a slashing maniac will screw you more often than help.

[dwalton]

Your are right in my opinion. It time and distance, you only have so much time to complete that track before daylight, sun, wind or many other reason it can not be completed. How many people do you know that catch 2,3,4 or 5 bobcats a day. I do not hunt where the biggest cat populations are here in Oregon. Most days in the snow I will cover 125 to 200 miles to cut 2 or 3 tracks. I just plan on catching them. I have boxed 130 miles in the rain before I got a strike before. I don't know of any body that hunts as hard as I do for what I catch. You have to have dogs that get it done quickly to catch any number of cats any where. Dewey

[twist]

I will have to agree steady progress on a cat will jump alot of cats flawless heads up blistering SPEED on a jumped cat is leathal. Andy

[al baldwin]

Dewey this is not meant to discredit you as a cat hunter. I believe you are a very hard hunter with a lot of knowledge. But I do recall a phone conservation with you once, you told me about a cat you had trailed that day. You stated every time you thought the dogs were going to get a tight jump, that cat did something & the dogs could never get that jump that allowed them to catch that cat. Myself & most others I know seem to have a lot more of those than you. Maybe because we hunt more open dogs? Maybe because we hunt the same areas where the cat are there because they have become dog wise? Maybe because you have better dogs? Those type of cat have been around as long as I hunted. When getting enough chances most of those cat got caught by my dogs, but certainly not every time. Why do you think your dogs could not get a tight jump on that cat you told me about? And did those one year old dogs open on that track enough for you to know where they were going? There is a good reason for asking how much mouth those young dogs gave, I have thoughts of cross a 9 year old male I recently bought to a running dog. Thanks Al Baldwin

[dwalton]

Al: T will try to answer some of your question. I feel open dogs have very little to do with longer races or not catching the cat. My dogs are open mouth dogs for some reason people believe other wise. Tanner was quiet as a young dog but opens good now. The difference is barking off track I think. Meaning, barking going to other dogs during the race barking, barking behind other dogs, barking at the same place more than once or twice. Ideally A dog should only bark if they have a clean track, no one ahead of them and every dog should be running for the lead opening when it has the track. Cats can become wise to running if they get away from the dogs in bluffs, blackberry patches running roads etc... If they are treed and not jumped out I believe they get easier to tree and have seen this in places that only I have hunted them. Dogs not getting a tight jump is from cats being taught to stay ahead of the dogs by getting away or because of weather conditions. If the dogs can not move that track faster than the cat is moving they can not jump it. I have seen a lot of packs that have sticky dogs or old dogs in them that pull the young dogs back to them on a loose. When I started back hunting about 6 years ago I got a 20 month old dog that had been on 40 cat races and a 7 month old dog that had been hunted little or none. 5 cats tree last 1\2 of that winter. Next winter 12 treed but they jumped 25 cats that they did not tree. I could take either one out with a 8 month cur and tree cats but together they made a good track bad. I sold the oldest and got 5\8 a running dog 8 months old. 45 cats the next winter treed because they move the track. They moved the track and did not stand on there heads. The running dog showed them how. The two young dogs were competitive enough that they were not going to get behind. This is going to get a lot of disagreement No the 0ne year dogs did not open at all on there first track by themselves. I would of been disappointed if they had. They were not at the stage that they should of been opening. I DO NOT WANT MY YOUNG DOGS TO OPEN UNTIL THEY KNOW WHY THEY ARE OPENING FOR. It would of been great if they would of went and treed that cat but they were not that far along. Tanner did tree one by himself not long after that way ahead of the old dogs. You can ask Tim what I expect out of young dogs and look for is not what most people believe is the way it should be. Tanner sister at one year old was the lead dog starting, trailing, on the jump and locating the tree for the top cat hunter in this part of the woods. She had more work than mine and developed younger [key here] to the point he pulled his pack of older dogs away and started young dogs with her. What I believe in training a cat dog goes against what most of the hunters know. It does not make it right or any better it just what I do. I think that is why there is very little agreement with me. They know what works for them. I know what works for me. The people that come and hunt with me can see the difference if they are open mined. A young hunter that had been very successful on coon and lion with 2 reg walker but not cats he hunted with me sold his male kept his female and started a part running dog on cat them sold his female. He got another pup. Hunting a two young dogs one less than 2 the other less than 1 year. Only hunting weekends is treeing cats consistently. Of course he has hundreds of cat where he lives and is lucky or maybe not. He is not hunting dogs from me but the type of dogs that I like. I got a little off Al I hope this gives you some of the answers to your question. As far as breeding to a running dog it depends on the dogs. Like all breeding of dogs know what your breeding to and for. Al PM me about the dogs you are going to breed or call me. 541-942-4376 Dewey

[slowandeasy]

you guys are sure right about one thing a loose mouth hound will cripple your treeing percentages. i'll put up with a little tight mouthed hound anyday. running their mouth and babbling all over the place will get them culled as quick as fighting at my place. but i still say it comes down to moving the track consistantly with few loses, and the ability to get with the program when they get the critters attention. i think in order to do this they must not over run their noses. and the ones that acomplish this are normally walking when the animal is walking, trotting when the animal is trotting, and running when the animal is running. i made a mistake on a previous post by saying traveling the same speed. not true the hound walks faster trots faster,and more often than not runs faster. and on the darn few times they might not run faster their lung power wins all contests once jumped. take care and have fun!

[al baldwin]

Thanks for that post Dewey. I know from experience a lot of young dogs do not open on track. Had numerous myself , some two or better before they would open much. Took some a lot longer to open on older scent. Recall you telling me about that one year old being a lead cat dog. Sure you must know that is very unusual. Sure few hunt as hard as you. Thanks Al Baldwin