Lion population in Montana

dhostetler · Post by **dhostetler** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:58 pm

I should have clarified my position. Under either a permit or quota system the FWP tries to keep the harvest rate close to the same so about the same amount of cats get killed the only difference is age & size. Under a good lion population that doesn't make any difference on the population itself.

I would prefer to go back to the quota system we had in the last 2 years of the quota where the non residents were limited. During that period Unit 100 stayed open till Christmas. I am not interested in going back to a wide open quota where we get flooded with non residents and have 48 hour kill seasons. The other solution I think might work is tripling the amount of tags issued with a quota. That should shorten the kill season and create a sense of emergency for tag holders to fill there tags.

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:06 pm

dhostetler wrote:@huntfairchase thanks for coming to my defense. @pistol when I read your post it initially pissed me off however you probably have the same opinion that I do that most guys that post on here are internet hunters. I bet I hunt harder than anybody else on this site. In the past 2 years under good conditions when I hunted for a 3 to 4 day stretch
a lot of times I wouldn't get more than 1 to 2 hours sleep a night. While spending up to 20 hours a day driving and snowmobiling. There are a lot of tracks that I didn't run however most days I turned loose on a track around 2 PM to just to run the dogs and also on the hope that dogs might jump a big cat while trailing a smaller one.

A lot of people on here will think I am crazy for stating the following: I have no problem with subadults being killed. The reason in NW MT we have a good lion population and this area has been logged heavily with a lot of access roads. In the last 15 years an average of about the same amount of cats have been killed year after year. During the quota years a lot of sub adults were killed during the kill season by people that just wanted a cat. Now these same people that just want a cat have to draw a permit and aren't happy with just a cat and want a big tom so they find some hound guy to tree a 110 to 120 lb. big cat that he says is 150 lb. and the cat gets shot. These same people would be just as happy with a 90 lb. sub, letting the 110 to 120 lb. toms get bigger.

I have also been concerned about the genetics, however what age does a tom attain his max size? I figure in unit 100 a lot of 2 to 3 year old toms are doing the breeding and they might still be carrying the genetics but might just be killed before they attain the max size.

I'm glad someone is on the same page as me or close to it. For the record in the 12 years I have been lion hunting I have killed 2 females. And as for toms I believe around 8 or so. 2 of those toms where around 120 lbs, the rest where above 140. When you kill all the big toms there is no one to manage the population hence the high harvest objectives in permit areas. I would much rather have a diverse lion population with a good chance of finding that dandy tom than to tool around in the woods catching a bunch of babies. You will have a hard time hurting the lion population in western montana. 80-100 years ago they shot every single lion they caught or saw, I have never heard of anyone having to reintroduce lions. I don't wanna see a big harvest objective, I wanna see a manageable harvest objective with the chance for any tag holder in the state to hunt and harvest a lion no matter how big or small. Its B.S. I have to drive an hour to hunt and kill a lion rather than in my back yard.

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:27 pm

One more thing.... Look at the Missoula Special Management Area, they spank the lions every year there big or small with a harvest of what 25 lions? That area produces some of the biggest toms around here year after year. I don't like the high female quota for the area is my only complaint.

larry · Post by **larry** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

BIGBLUES wrote: For the record in the 12 years I have been lion hunting I have killed 2 females. And as for toms I believe around 8 or so. 2 of those toms where around 120 lbs, the rest where above 140. .

Which category does the one you killed this year fall into.....

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:03 am

larry wrote:
BIGBLUES wrote: For the record in the 12 years I have been lion hunting I have killed 2 females. And as for toms I believe around 8 or so. 2 of those toms where around 120 lbs, the rest where above 140. .

Which category does the one you killed this year fall into.....

I have only killed on it was the first legal lion I ever treed with my hounds 12 years ago. It was a 80 lb female. All the others where buddies of mine and the woman. I have a permit this year and never chose to fill it even tho I could have several times. I would rather buy a general tag and go to where you hunt LARRY or where you hunt BADLANDSCAT and kill a trophy where the population is being slaughtered by "50% at least" than to apply for another permit. I hunt for the dogs not the lions that's why I have only shot one.

dhostetler · Post by **dhostetler** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:37 am

I to have only personnaly killed one a small one when I first started 10 years ago. Though I have treed lions that others have shot over the years. I also hunt for the love of hound hunting and I would love to some day harvest a big tom. Out of the 28 I treed this year a buddy shot one and another one was a sow and kitten on a split race treed 700 yards apart. So I would've passed up 25 legal lions. If I wouldn't have had a tag I could've treed more instead of passing up tracks.

wrbutler · Post by **wrbutler** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:06 am

larry- just so we are clear. i will not keep my mouth shut around you. You opened the can of worms a few years ago and a few of us havent forgotten. Yes you are a hypocryte, and i have some others words for ya as well. one year you are about killing only trophy book cats and the next your an outfitter killing for money??????? i think its kinda cute watching you get escorted out the door by fwp. all i wanted to do was talk lol.........

larry · Post by **larry** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:19 am

wrbutler wrote:larry- just so we are clear. i will not keep my mouth shut around you. You opened the can of worms a few years ago and a few of us havent forgotten. Yes you are a hypocryte, and i have some others words for ya as well. one year you are about killing only trophy book cats and the next your an outfitter killing for money??????? i think its kinda cute watching you get escorted out the door by fwp. all i wanted to do was talk lol.........

yer an ass clown

wrbutler · Post by **wrbutler** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:43 am

yes maybe i am but the truth hurts dont it?

MThound · Post by **MThound** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:24 am

We as houndsmen are ultimately responsible for the cat population in our country. I have run hounds just long enough to see the ups and downs of our lion populations. On the old quota system, everyone with a dog was taking friends out to harvest the first thing that was put in a tree. There were plenty of cats of all ages, and yes some very mature toms (160+ pounds). High quotas, and trigger happy hunters eventually took its toll. By over harvesting the cats, we seen a drastic decline in the population. I went from treeing 40+ cats a season, to treeing 8 or 10 hunting the same areas harder. Once the cat population dwindled, many “houndsmen” sold their dogs or just quit. Very few cats were left and were hard to find. The struggling population slowly started coming back and the permit system was put into place in Region 2. The permit system helped greatly in the cats favor. Fewer cats are being harvested and some of the younger toms are getting a chance to grow. I’m afraid a hybrid system will only hurt our lion population. I hate being restricted to hunting only one area to harvest a cat, but I do enjoy the opportunity to actually find a fresh track without looking days for one.
It is also very interesting to see how the pressure on the management area has increased after the introduction of the permit system in Region 2. Ever since the management area was started, the quota had never been filled. There were many more cats in it back then, and yet the increased pressure from nonpermit holders managed to fill the quota the last two years. I’m glad to see not all of the females were harvested this year as well.
The female harvest has the biggest impact upon the lion population. Without them, you won’t have anything. It has been shown in several studies that most all females are either pregnant or have kittens. Just remember that after a couple of months a female can be very difficult to tell whether she is lactating or not. They will stash their kittens up to a week before returning to them after making a kill. I have caught numerous females that I thought were alone, only to find two small kittens with her three or four days later. If you care about the population at all, you should refrain from the harvesting of a female.
Bigblues mentioned “You will have a hard time hurting the lion population in western Montana. 80-100 years ago they shot every single lion they caught or saw, I have never heard of anyone having to reintroduce lions.” I don’t think there were 1000’s of miles of logging roads cut across the hillsides a hundred years ago. I don’t believe too many snow machines were being used then either. In fact most people didn’t even have four wheel drive until the 50’s or 60’s. A lot has changed since then, and yes it is very feasible to eliminate a lion population in our area today.
The Garnite lion study experienced the pressure of overharvest in the first couple years. The collared cats were being harvested almost as fast as they were being collared. After the second year, the study area was closed down to lion hunting. The cat population rebounded after a few years.
If quotas are put back into place Region 2 is going to see a dramatic overharvest of cats once again. Several houndsmen will be after the first legal thing that climbs a tree. I really don’t miss the days that I had to get up at 3 am only to find other hunters that have been driving the roads all night to cut a track. I have caught several decent toms the past few years, only to take a few pictures hoping they will be around for later. I hold the future of the cat’s life in my hands when at the tree, and it makes me feel good that at least I give him a chance that many others wouldn’t have. There has to be a medium ground for everyone, but it comes down to the responsibility of us houndsmen to ensure the longevity and proper management of the sport we cherish.

larry · Post by **larry** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:49 am

wrbutler wrote::beer yes maybe i am but the truth hurts dont it?

the day that anything that comes out of your mouth has any effect on me whatsoever is quite frankly never gonna come. I'm flattered that you think you have any effect whatsoever on my mood, feelings or outlook, sorry to burst your bubble, but you actually never cross my mind and what you say is less than a momentary muse, if that. :wink:

But it's nice to hear you admit that you love the C%*K! :lol:

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:02 am

MThound wrote:We as houndsmen are ultimately responsible for the cat population in our country. I have run hounds just long enough to see the ups and downs of our lion populations. On the old quota system, everyone with a dog was taking friends out to harvest the first thing that was put in a tree. There were plenty of cats of all ages, and yes some very mature toms (160+ pounds). High quotas, and trigger happy hunters eventually took its toll. By over harvesting the cats, we seen a drastic decline in the population. I went from treeing 40+ cats a season, to treeing 8 or 10 hunting the same areas harder. Once the cat population dwindled, many “houndsmen” sold their dogs or just quit. Very few cats were left and were hard to find. The struggling population slowly started coming back and the permit system was put into place in Region 2. The permit system helped greatly in the cats favor. Fewer cats are being harvested and some of the younger toms are getting a chance to grow. I’m afraid a hybrid system will only hurt our lion population. I hate being restricted to hunting only one area to harvest a cat, but I do enjoy the opportunity to actually find a fresh track without looking days for one.
It is also very interesting to see how the pressure on the management area has increased after the introduction of the permit system in Region 2. Ever since the management area was started, the quota had never been filled. There were many more cats in it back then, and yet the increased pressure from nonpermit holders managed to fill the quota the last two years. I’m glad to see not all of the females were harvested this year as well.
The female harvest has the biggest impact upon the lion population. Without them, you won’t have anything. It has been shown in several studies that most all females are either pregnant or have kittens. Just remember that after a couple of months a female can be very difficult to tell whether she is lactating or not. They will stash their kittens up to a week before returning to them after making a kill. I have caught numerous females that I thought were alone, only to find two small kittens with her three or four days later. If you care about the population at all, you should refrain from the harvesting of a female.
Bigblues mentioned “You will have a hard time hurting the lion population in western Montana. 80-100 years ago they shot every single lion they caught or saw, I have never heard of anyone having to reintroduce lions.” I don’t think there were 1000’s of miles of logging roads cut across the hillsides a hundred years ago. I don’t believe too many snow machines were being used then either. In fact most people didn’t even have four wheel drive until the 50’s or 60’s. A lot has changed since then, and yes it is very feasible to eliminate a lion population in our area today.
The Garnite lion study experienced the pressure of overharvest in the first couple years. The collared cats were being harvested almost as fast as they were being collared. After the second year, the study area was closed down to lion hunting. The cat population rebounded after a few years.
If quotas are put back into place Region 2 is going to see a dramatic overharvest of cats once again. Several houndsmen will be after the first legal thing that climbs a tree. I really don’t miss the days that I had to get up at 3 am only to find other hunters that have been driving the roads all night to cut a track. I have caught several decent toms the past few years, only to take a few pictures hoping they will be around for later. I hold the future of the cat’s life in my hands when at the tree, and it makes me feel good that at least I give him a chance that many others wouldn’t have. There has to be a medium ground for everyone, but it comes down to the responsibility of us houndsmen to ensure the longevity and proper management of the sport we cherish.

Thanks for your input MThound I respect your opinion and can agree with a lot of what you say. How ever I still feel that the quota system is the best way with a low harvest objective. I also realize that 80 years ago the transportation was different. They did have roads in a lot of areas and there was actually less timber in a lot of areas. They were logging the hell out of everything and trapping and killing every predator. I think now days the lions have a better chance for survival with limited areas such as private lands, wintering grounds, and locked gates with limited access. Also our hunting season is limited to a third of the year where back when they would hunt all year round. It would be nice to find some common ground to keep a managed population of lions for future years. But I don't want to be limited on where I have to harvest my lion. I don't mind getting up at 3 am to find a track before someone else does. I personally like the competition and like meeting other houndsmen ( although most have a stick up their ass). I like to keep hunting hunting and not so restricted. I think a trophy is the experience not the weight or age for many people. I know I was happy as hell with my first lion and have never had one regret after the harvest. I have gotten a lot less cocky since I began with hounds but I am still as ambitious as I was 12 years ago and hunt a lot every season. Thanks again for your opinion MThound.

catdogs · Post by **catdogs** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:25 pm

Good post Rory. Its obvious there is really no way for FWP to accurately determine state cougar populations. So, it is up to the houndsman to give local biologists input on what they are seeing. Be proactive if you feel lion populations are suffering in your area. There are a couple great books out there that you can use to throw FWP study facts back in their face, that really impresses them....

Managing Cougars in North America:

http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/pdf/%2 ... erForm.pdf

and

Cougar Management Guidelines

http://www.opalcreekpress.com/book_cmg.php

Both these book are cheap and full of really good info.

Another short worthwhile article.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/artic ... nlions.htm

Interestingly, lion harvest was highest in 1998 at 756 lions. In that article, DiSimone is quoted as saying that "we can't harvest lions as heavily as we have in the past". I can tell you , that some of the new proposed Region 2 quotas are higher than what they were in 1998. :shock:

sheimer · Post by **sheimer** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:33 pm

I don't quite understand the info that I get from the FWP website on the "lion harvest by district" page.....

They show quota's for all the districts, including the Region 1 and 2. I don't hunt there and was under the assumption that it was all permit only, less 141, 150 and 151. Can someone help me out on clarifying that for me?

I did total up the number of lions harvested on that report for the current season and came up with 469 total lions harvested, of which 168 were females for a 35.8% female harvest.

I did notice some extreme cases of lack of hunter ethics....Take district 392 for example, female quota of 2 and 5 females were harvested by 12/5. That to me is just unethical....in 5 days of the season, 250% female harvest....WOW! What about Region 7. 17 females and 13 males. That seems a little scewed to me.

Not to be totally negative, I noticed several areas that were totally male harvest with no females even though they were legal to harvest....141, 200/201, 212/215, 213/214, 301, 311, 319/341, 404/421/444/450, 502/575, 510, 520. I would almost bet that there were females treed by tagholders who decided to walk away and leave the female in the tree in all those areas. I know in some of those areas for certain that the total quota hasn't been filled as yet and it most certainly could have been but the people under the tree decided to let the cats grow for another year or two and hopefully have a lot better tom to harvest later.

Just my .02

Scott

pistol · Post by **pistol** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:53 pm

Scott..those areas your talking about in region 1 are all general licence areas and are still on the old quota system and so is 132. Those area except 132 are the Great Bear and bob marshall wilderness and its all roadless and that country gets snowed in perty darn fast. As far as 132 goes its alot of roadless area just out side of kalsipell but theres is some access and alot of private areas in the bottom. When there was a quota system it never closed the whole year but now its lucky to stay open much past christmas.

Lion population in Montana

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Re: Lion population in Montana

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Re: Lion population in Montana