Lion population in Montana

[Lost River]

Really? I mean REALLY? There is some sort of PRIDE or sense of accomplishment with this? You would post pictures to show off your kill? Come on houndsMEN. We are our worst enemy. If we all adhered to a higher standard the fish and game could open the season year round with no limit and no quota and these debates and f and w meetings would not be needed. I am gonna go dig around in the creek for some gold because in 4 more years we are gonna be right back to where it isn't worth feeding a hound unless you want to take up chasing wolves. Casey
PS My name is Casey Richardson and my phone number is 406-546-1878 in case I get called a spineless sissy that hides behind a keyboard like I did last time I posted a pic like this.
PSS After looking closer at this trophy I realize the spots probably will look very nice in the lifesize mount, probably will need a medium bobcat form for it though. Maybe a nice toilet seat cover? So many options for a trophy like this.

[Fuster]

Its a good news about Lion population in Montana. Lion population is a very important of nature. Also lions facts and lions population is very helpful for nature.

[Rockydog]

does anyone know how to see the proposed rules for next season on the fwp site?

there are articles in several of todays papers on the increases that say the rules can be commented on at the fwp site, but there is nothing that i can see at fwp.

[catcrazy_406]

well said casey! for anyone who has ran cats for an extended period of time they would know that lion numbers are down end of story. lion hunting isn't about killing a good mature tom now and then is good for the dogs moral but every cat that goes up a tree is rediculus. if you hunt cats just to shoot them do us all a favor and sell your dogs and get out of the sport. if you wanna shoot every cat you see get your ass to work on bobcats and goodluck! -Drew

[Cold Track]

It's good to see concern early like this if all that has been said is true, but you guys that are catching twenty plus lions a year have nothing to complain about. I'd give anything to get those kind of numbers back. It used to be that way here in Ut, but unless your a gov hunter or are lucky enough to hunt 5 or 6 days a week catchin that many lions through the winter is a pipe dream. The point I'm getting at is if SFW takes over up there those days are over! SFW was created by guys in Ut and I'm sure they're teaching the deer and elk hunters in Mt the ropes on how to run it, and make sure they make their money. Educate those who don't know any better, 90 plus percent of lions are killed over dogs!

[dhostetler]

Lost River I agree with a lot of what you are saying though I know for a fact I treed more than 4 individual lions. We will never be able to control what other hound guys do. I to agree the wolves are a big problem.

I believe the greatest threat to our lion population will be the upcoming legislation session. Currently we are a very small minority of hunters in MT though we do have largest influence with FWP on the lion populations. When it comes to the legislature I figure we will be drowned out by the animosty the genaral hunting public has toward predators that has been stoked by the current wolf situation. My guess is by July 2013 we will be faced with no cougar season due to them being listed as predators or we will see a wide open winter long kill season statewide with no quotas.

[BIGBLUES]

Trying to use the Missoula Management Area... aaahhemm I mean Missoula Kill/Slaughter Zone as an example of where big toms come from, in my opinion isn't really very accurate. Everyone buys a general tag and then they hunt in the draw units. When they tree a monster they shoot the cat, load it up and turn it in that it was shot it in the Missoula slaughter zone. Unless someone calls and complains or know something to get the fish and game a direction to head with an investigation they have their big tom and no one is wiser.
To try to say lion populations are out of control or even high is not responsible. How bout the fish and game work with houndsmen and lets start counting cats? How bout we mark them with paint balls and get a good count, saturate an area with houndsmen over a week long and get a count. Problem is some guys say, "Well I treed 27 cats this season in unit blah blah." Well so what? It's the same 4 cats over and over.
Wolves are the culprit, PERIOD. End of STORY!!!! Blaming bears and mountain lions is f-ing crazy. (And yes I am an SFW member and have been on the board and that is the belief of 95% in Montana SFW). 15 years ago we had the highest mountain lion numbers we have ever had in the history of the state as well as the black bears were rolling. Guess what? Never had a problem finding a deer or elk. Does anyone find it f-ing amazing that the lion quota is double what the quota is on wolves. I see 10 f-ing wolf tracks for every lion track. Come on people, wake the F- up!!!!
Lions are one of the few predators, that any given year we can virtually eliminate them as houndsmen. Seriously, if the lion population was bad and we truly needed to drop numbers they could open the season with no limit and no quota and one good season they would be all but gone. With the aid of snowmachines, 4 wheel drives and the logging roads they could be wiped out.
Unless someone has a physical handicap, is elderly and has never got a cat there is no reason to be shooting females. I have been on close to 400 cat trees and have seen less that 10 of them killed over 25 years, I have NEVER let someone kill a female. Each to their own and many say "Well if it is legal then go hard!". Whatever, I can't believe houndsmen need to ruin their own damn sport by killing the critter that supposedly gives them so much joy in chasing.
Quotas mean absolutely nothing if we as houndsmen would stick together and refuse to let anyone take a female over our dogs. Come on! You caught the cat, take a picture, enjoy your dogs, pet them up and walk away and come back with some pups another day and do it again. And maybe let a 110-120 lb tom walk now and then, think it would be nice to see some more mature toms, but guess what? We are the only ones that can make that happen. Casey

I for a fact know that many trophy toms come from Missoula special management area. We have harvested 4 in the last 12 years and my buddies have harvested many over the years. I am sure every once and a while someone does do as you say.
I treed 9 different lions within 2 miles of road up Lolo creek this year. Some areas I saw less but the majority of what I saw is that the population is very very healthy right now. All the bigger toms I saw were early on in the season and never saw them again. I am sure they are dead. I don't work in the winter and hunt everyday there is snow to track.
Bears are a threat on the elk population especially during calving season. They didn't have as much effect as they did without wolves. Now with wolves every extra mouth has a big impact.
Your right and I will agree with you 110% ITS THE WOLVES. I don't wanna see high lion quotas just a responsible quota and to be able to harvest where ever you want any year you want.

[catcrazy_406]

BIGBLUES it wasn't until last season that lion numbers even seemed healthy. and this year they were decent but nothing like they used to be. so for you to think lion numbers are healthy only indicates you haven't been at the sport for very long. my family has been doing lion studies for 50 years in montana and worked on and off with the fish and game tagging and tracking and moving lions all around the state. lion numbers were boomin in the 90's nearly wiped out in the early 2000's. its not until the last couple of years that lion numbers have come back from near nothingness and as a "houndsman" why would you want that taken away again? if you wanna know the true lion population get with the fish and game and start tagging every lion you tree and see what the count ends up. i hunted lolo crick almost all year long this year and didn't see 9 different lion tracks in the whole place, but yet again its been in my family for 50 years and i've been doing it myself for close to 20 years so i guess i have the upperhand in knowing tracks. and for all of those of you who have shot a female, kitten, or immature lion if you could do all us true houndsman a favor and please stop hunting it would be much appreciated. idk how anyone can call themselves a "houndsman" when your shooting a female lion. a houndsman would never do that because if you kill one female you basically kill, o idk lets do the math we'll say 2 kittens a year for 15 years thats 31 cats you've killed, now say half of those kittens were females so call it 15 and do the math on that... single handedly killed your own sport. get a clue and do some research and educate yourself.
i myself also hunted the "kill zone" all year, as well as a few other houndsman i know, and saw a total of 1, yes i said 1 mature tom track and we covered every road available to hunt so the amount of mature toms there is lacking to say the least.

[Lost River]

A proposed quota of 517 lions for the state... A wolf quota of 220. WTF? I see 10 wolf tracks for every lion track I see. Anyone else see a problem with this?
Bigblue, 9 different cats in a 2 mile area, I think I am hunting the wrong part of Lolo Creek! Might be seeing me over there more often next year!

[sconrad]

In the early 90's I could'nt even find 9 tracks in the fish cr. area! Numbers are down in the west! Stay off the gun! Get behind the camera! I agree with you Casey 100% . I can find at least 10 wolf tracks to a lion track! I does'nt take a smart man to figure out who is being the scapegoat in this mess. When we a have guys saying there are two many cats, to what? In three years in region 1 where i hunt there has been a decline in lions period.If a guy wants to kill everthing he trees start running coons over east!

[BIGBLUES]

BIGBLUES it wasn't until last season that lion numbers even seemed healthy. and this year they were decent but nothing like they used to be. so for you to think lion numbers are healthy only indicates you haven't been at the sport for very long. my family has been doing lion studies for 50 years in montana and worked on and off with the fish and game tagging and tracking and moving lions all around the state. lion numbers were boomin in the 90's nearly wiped out in the early 2000's. its not until the last couple of years that lion numbers have come back from near nothingness and as a "houndsman" why would you want that taken away again? if you wanna know the true lion population get with the fish and game and start tagging every lion you tree and see what the count ends up. i hunted lolo crick almost all year long this year and didn't see 9 different lion tracks in the whole place, but yet again its been in my family for 50 years and i've been doing it myself for close to 20 years so i guess i have the upperhand in knowing tracks. and for all of those of you who have shot a female, kitten, or immature lion if you could do all us true houndsman a favor and please stop hunting it would be much appreciated. idk how anyone can call themselves a "houndsman" when your shooting a female lion. a houndsman would never do that because if you kill one female you basically kill, o idk lets do the math we'll say 2 kittens a year for 15 years thats 31 cats you've killed, now say half of those kittens were females so call it 15 and do the math on that... single handedly killed your own sport. get a clue and do some research and educate yourself.
i myself also hunted the "kill zone" all year, as well as a few other houndsman i know, and saw a total of 1, yes i said 1 mature tom track and we covered every road available to hunt so the amount of mature toms there is lacking to say the least.

I personally have only had hounds for 12 years but my family has ran hounds since the 60's. My experience in the last 12 years is there has been a very healthy population since I have started. But I have noticed as I previously said that the big tom pop. is down and the subs and kittens are up.
As far as you hunting Lolo creek I never saw you once up there. I have only ran into 4 different guys up there this year. I would stay in Fish creek for 3-4 days at a time. The 9 different lions were almost all on private property that I have permission to run. One day I ran 3 subs, next female with 3 kittens, another sub, and a female with nothing. And not far from there more lions but that area was the most concentrated. I didn't see much in the burn in the middle of Fish creek but a lot in the bottom and the upper end. Howard creek seemed down. but between graves to Lolo is not hurting one bit. In the Special M A there were days I would see 5 lion tracks all miles apart. There is a lot of thick timbered draws that support healthy lion populations that hardly ever get touched. And behind the house up 3 mile, 8 mile, and Ambrose there is a healthy population as well. More big toms in these areas. I have noticed more lions in the bitterroots, when I first started hunting it didn;t seem that great down here.

[catcrazy_406]

the bitterroot population is definatly better than it has been but not for long the way things are being run. too many females were taken this year and last year and that starts to take a tole in a hurry. as houndsmen we'd be doin ourselves a favor by not taking any females and not letting anyone take any females over our dogs. i will never do it nor will anyone who wants to go along with me. end of story. if we wanna keep our healthy lion population its up to us as houndsmen to do so.

[Lost River]

I'm out.

[Kevin Jackson]

The population here is holding steady. The number of big toms seen is less this year but winter never hit hard enough to push everything down. I treed lions just like I do every year, in fact I had a real good year for this area. The fwp is trying to wipe the cats out and that sucks. I have my eye on a couple toms for next year. To the guys that can't find a cat all I can say is hunt a little harder. I hunt lions period. I let the majority go but some get killed. That is my choice and 100% legal. What makes it o.k. to kill a 150+ pound cat but not o.k. to kill a 135 pound cat? I've had bigger and smaller cats killed over my dogs. The guys that shoot the cats are happy with them and it's the experience of a lifetime for them. Who is anyone to judge them or me. I go to bed every night with a clear head and concious. Some people on this site are so important in their own mind that they think their opinion is all that matters. To each their own. For someone to say I'm not a houndsmen because I kill lions is plain stupid. I hunt my dogs as hard as any man and keep good dogs. I might do what some don't like and not like what some do but oh well. Happy hunting to all.

[Lost River]

I don't think anyone would ever say a bad word about someone taking a 135 lb tom, or a 110 lb tom for that matter. I think most people get tired of seeing 60-70 lbs females being wacked and being represented as 125 lbers. Spend a season with a paint ball gun in your hand and mark a few females... you will find that most of those lone females that you mark will be the same one you treed later in the season that has young that depend on them, or you might tree her with her young in tow and then tree her two weeks later without hide nor hair of her depends anywhere near. I have a problem with guys killing cats that aren't mature, 2 year old cats or younger. Sorry if that get's someone's dander up, but that is the way I was tought and it is engrained. But it has been said before, if it is legal then that is the hunter's call. Happy hunting, Casey