The Decline of the Walker Dog Hound

[Ike]

I've heard alot talk about walker dogs being bred for competition coon hunting which has destroyed their cold nose breeding and voice to some degree. I hear lots of those coon hunters breed the dogs that will drift hot scent, find layups and will often tree without striking a track. I've also read where many of those hounds will run over a cold track to strike a hot one which is why they often are big winners at the comp hunts. Meanwhile I've also heard some western hunters complain that breed of hound has gone downhill because of the coonhunters yet the walker dog hunters always hold up the comp hunt victories as proof of the bred.

What say you on this matter? And remember I have no agenda nor do I own or hunt walker dogs.....just figure it's their turn for scrutiny.

[Mike Leonard]

Ike,

I think this is an excellent question and I guess we as pretty much all big game hunters primarily want to know where these breeds as a whole stand. Ofcourse we all realize that their are still some excellent specimans in all of the breeds and also some honest breeders still striving to enhance over all ability traits but the breeds as a group we need to look at.

As some know when I started in hounds man many moons ago following my Uncles redbones and also those of a few other neighbors on the river. I never saw a hound other than a red dog until one day he bought a black and tan and later his buddy got a plott. I was way up in my teens before I ever saw a walker or a bluetick in the flesh. I saw them in pictures and I use to dream of owning some bluetick and redticks like the ones I saw in the pictures with the famous Lee Brothers taking hunters after lion, bear and jaguar. I finally got my chance to own some of my own dogs and i had a friend who came up from Oklahoma and he was a dyed in the wool walker man. He had some old House bred dogs and I got a couple of pups off him and tried to train them on my own. What a disaster! I tried hard but about all I could ever get them to run was deer and they did a good job on them I will tell you for sure. I finally fell in with an old govement hunter and he had some really top cat dogs and they were blueticks and high tans. after watching his dogs in action I knew my two deer running walkers were not going to make the grade. He helped my cross over a bridge from which I have never been able to go back across. He told me if I would get rid of those two deer burners and he meant dispose of them not peddle them he would give me started blue dog that would make me proud. I did, he did and the blue dog still ranks right at the top of the heap of hundreds of hound I have ever owned. So blueticks are better than walkers?

No i just got some direction and a line that was right for the hunting I was doing.This dog showed me what a real hound could do and I started to become a success at hunting. I tried to duplicate him but was not very successful with that. I had a burr under my saddle for walker dogs and I just felt they all were hot nosed deer burners and I wanted nothing to do with the,.Well about this time I met John Monroe of Finley River walker fame. I told him about my expereince with walkers and how i liked my cold nosed bluetick a whole lot better. He said well you should try one of my walkers I think you would change your mind.They are cold nosed bawl mouthed track dogs and they will also run circles around your old blue dog. Well that sort of ticked me off, but my buddy got fired up and asked John to send him a male and a female. The famle was out of Finely River Joe and the Male was out of one of John's Cheif bred bitches and Beaver Lake Lightning. Well in just a short time these dogs were doing just what he had said trailing good, and cold tracks , treeing ahead of old Blue Earl many times and I was green with envy. Well I called John again and told him he was right and I guess i should give walkers another chance. He said well not all walkers are this way and he told me he was already seeing a shift to hotter nosed pop up dogs that could really rack up points on the scorecard in thick coon country and win the money hunts. He said he really didn't want his dogs to become that kind. He had a lot of praise for other foundation walker breeders like Joe House and James Merchant and ofcourse Lester Nance and Raymond Motely. He said these dogs all come back to pretty much the same tree it's just the direction they have been taken from there. My buddy with the two good dogs crossed them several times and he was lucky I guess because nearly every pup turned out to make a better than average dog if hunted and some were really top lion dogs. I ended up with several of them and a female from Lester Nance and another from John Wicke and I had some pretty decent walker dogs for a number of years. Like all good things it seems tradgedy struck and I lost several of the key elements and about that time my friend who had the original dogs choked to death and his dogs were sold off before I could get back there to get involved. Well for several years I spent thousand on top titles walker dogs prodgeny from all over the country, and about all I had to show for it was dog bones scattered across half of the west. John had some problems and he really didn't produce the dogs he did before and others that I tried just didn't have what I was looking for. I switched around ran black dogs, blue dogs, brindle dogs and every cross imaginable. I had some success with some of Morris Hurt and Bobby Shives dogs but I never carried it on long enough. I fell into an old strain of lion dogs from Wiley Carroll, and the Giles Goswick strain as well as those of Jeff Allen and pretty much stayed with them and I still have a lot of that. I decided that registered walkers were probably not a choice for me as most had become hot nosed competition coon dogs. And then lo and behold I end up around some guys who had been breeding and hunting an old line of Nance dogs that were very heavy in the lines of Nance's Little Topper. I liked what I saw in many of these dogs and also the consistancy they were getting. Not to say they are better than any other walker strain because their duds and wonders in all lines, but they did cold trail like the old time walkers did, and they did seem to have qualities that would help them make good cat and lion dogs.

so here I am full circle and still scratching my head, I guess it is not a thing you ever figure out completly and maybe that is what keeps it interesting. If you like the dogs you have and they do good for you then indeed you are a member of this lucky group of hound dog folks.

[Budd Denny]

Decline in Walkers? You better get your head checked .

[sow flat slim]

I dont run walkers, but Mike that was some interesting reading.

[Dan Edwards]

Decline in Walkers? You better get your head checked .

I would say you might be onto something partner. Just wait til the hog hunters even realize how much better they are than every other breed.

Then there wont be an arena out there that they dont dominate.

I only own one running Walker and one treeing Walker right now but I seriously sometimes wonder why I have anything else on the yard.

[Blue Man]

Decline in Walkers? You better get your head checked .

I would say you might be onto something partner. Just wait til the hog hunters even realize how much better they are than every other breed.

Then there wont be an arena out there that they dont dominate.

I only own one running Walker and one treeing Walker right now but I seriously sometimes wonder why I have anything else on the yard.

I'm sure they tried the Walker. They liked the warm nose just not enough grit. They tried the Bluetick it had enough grit but to cold of a nose. Thats why they like Plotts they have the gritt and a warm nose.

[Melanie Hampton]

Well... I am not smart on any of these subjects.. I know what I have tried.. And that is all.. That being said, we started with a local for generations, bred for big game, Walkers.. They are cold nosed, bawl mouth, or heavy deep chop mouthes, they are smarter then hell, and nice to hunt.. They have proven themselves in different sorts of terrain and we are happy with them.. Sure they have faults, but all dogs do, if you say they don't I will call you a liar

I do currently own one "competition" bred Walker and must have gotten really lucky because she has a wicked cold nose, beautiful mouth and is a pretty smart little girl..

There are people out there doing the right thing by these dogs.. Sure there are lots of idiot competition bred Walkers out there, but heck.. our bluetick female, while she has tons of heart and desire, doesn't even come close in the nose department of my Walkers.. There are just a lot of culls in every breed.. And we have tried every color imaginable..

You just have to do your research, which you should be doing, or get lucky like we did and ask the right person to go hunting and buy dogs from them..

[david]

they are smarter then hell, ..

I have had a lot of Walkers, and some very good ones. But when you say they are smarter than hell, I am suddenly thinking that maybe hell is not very smart, or if hell is really smart, and your dogs are smarter still, then you have Walker dogs the likes of I have never seen.

I have not yet met a Walker that was smart enough to be able to overcome it's instincts, unless absolutely forced to with what some might consider torture. This is even when they themselves have witnessed repeatedly and endlessly that those instincts have failed them in certain re-occurring situations.

People that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually refered to as "inmates" or "ex-convicts".

Dogs that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually called "Walkers"

[Melanie Hampton]

If I had said "smarter then most cow dogs" would that make them not convicts? Or "smarter then most hound guys I know"

Never met a dog who wasn't able to overcome instinct without repeated force . I have one who isn't interested in "speedbeef" at all, if that is what you are talking about.. Have a few that it has taken lots of force and time and well worth the end results.. And that type of thing doesn't bug me the least bit..

Most Walkers have been the LEAST hard headed dogs to work with in any aspect. And learn the quickest from all the dogs I have hunted with.

Nope the smarts I was talking about had nothing to do with that.. Just general smarts..

Or maybe it is just that I have spent too much time around other dogs who could barely remember what you calling there name meant...

So maybe I just haven't hung around with the right dogs..

[Spanky]

Dogs that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually called "Walkers"

So what does that make you then Dave since your the authority and seem to have a hard time over coming your instincts in owning more then one.....

I have had a lot of Walkers, and some very good ones. But when you say they are smarter than hell, I am suddenly thinking that maybe hell is not very smart, or if hell is really smart, and your dogs are smarter still, then you have Walker dogs the likes of I have never seen.

I mean if the walker is such a cull how many times do you need your hand slammed in the car door before you stop sticking it in there

In your own words.......

People that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually refered to as "inmates" or "ex-convicts".

[Spanky]

As for the thread and a so called decline it depends on which side of the fence your on. If your a coonhunter the breeders developed a hound that is almost unbeatable in competition, thats seems to be a success story to me. Those men accomplished exactly what they wanted to do with the breed and they hold a candle to no other breed when it comes to winning.

As for the Big Gamers shame on us for not keeping the old blood around enough to keep the nose on the hounds for our us. There are pockets of excellent big game walker hounds out there such as Nelson Cole, Warner Glenn and a few others but they are not overwhelming to say the least.

[Budd Denny]

As for the thread and a so called decline it depends on which side of the fence your on. If your a coonhunter the breeders developed a hound that is almost unbeatable in competition, thats seems to be a success story to me. Those men accomplished exactly what they wanted to do with the breed and they hold a candle to no other breed when it comes to winning.

As for the Big Gamers shame on us for not keeping the old blood around enough to keep the nose on the hounds for our us. There are pockets of excellent big game walker hounds out there such as Nelson Cole, Warner Glenn and a few others but they are not overwhelming to say the least.

[Blue Man]

Now I'm not sure but I have been told that they started using Walkers in the competition hunts because you can see them easer at night.

[HoundDawg]

I guess I'm in the minority because I don't really believe there is one magical breed that can solve all your problems. I think they are dogs and they are a lot more similar to each other than we want to admit.

I've heard red bones are growly and this and that, but I've seen red bones that were anything but growly. I've heard walkers were hot nosed and soft footed but I've seen walker dogs that had tougher feet and colder noses than any other dog in camp. Tell Warner Glenn walker dogs are in decline.

I've heard black and tans were too big, too slow and too lurpy, but I've seen some black and tans that lead every other dog to the tree and some of the best bear hunters I know of used them exclusively for years.

Heard the same about blueticks, they are too stupid, too hard headed, too this or too that... Know a guy right now that hunts basically only blueticks and I'd wager money there ain't three guys on this site that caught the number of bears he put up last year.

Heard plotts were mean, growly, tree fighters, etc... seen some plotts that could flat get it done and didn't have a growly bone in their body. And I've heard all the cur talk and seen a few cur dogs that could hunt circles around every hound in camp.

So don't expect me to jump on any band wagon or claim any breed is in decline because I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they are all pretty much dogs... the color and breeding of the dog matters a helluva lot more to the dude packing the leashes than it does to the critter that is running for his life with the dog hot on his ass.

I'll leave the arguing breed and color to those who know more about it. All I know is I've seen a few really really top dogs in every color and every breed, seen a bunch more pretty good dogs and a butt load of average dogs in every breed.

If it will tree game and hold it for me to get to the tree, take a picture and eat a candy bar under the tree, I don't care if the damn thing is purple with yellow stripes, I'll feed it.

That said, I also don't care if the dog has pedigree so stacked on both sides that the Smithsonian institute would like to display them, if the dog doesn't do what I want or need it to, his diet is going to be enhanced with some lead supplements.

Soon as you start thinkin' a particular breed is in decline or finished, some fellar is going to come along with a whole truck full of them dogs and hand your ass to ya on the mountain.

Near as I can tell from reading these websites, my dogs are in decline and everybody else's are the stuff that books should be written about.

[thomas]

The End