runnin breed vs tree hound

[BrandonCombe]

Alright so I know this topic has been beetin to death but now you all got me curious so I'm gonna give it another wack. So for all you guys that know from experience and have had the chance to really hunt both good tree hounds and nice running bred hounds what do you guys like or dislike about both what's the pros and cons of both tree hounds and running bred hounds I've only had and hunted with tree hounds and I'm really curious as to what all the hypes about over the running bred because I havnt had any personal experience with them so let's hear it boys

[Jeff Eberle]

I don't get it, Guys act like the running cross is a new thing.Guy have been doing it for a long time here in Calif. The Turners , Louie Peck where doing it 25- 30 plus yrs ago.

[al baldwin]

Brandon, there is no doubt when you get the correct combination of running, tree dog mix they can make awesome hounds for bobcat, fox & most any varmint. The thing I have trouble agreeing with is that because you have mixed in running blood with tree stock, you have a breed that is superior to all tree hounds in striking, tracking and treeing varmints. I have not hunted around a large of running dogs, however have a friend who has. That friend is a very straight shooter & hunted in California with some good hunters who used lots of running or running tree crosses. He also has owned several hounds with running stock in them. He told me he had the same experience as I. Some days the running dogs shined & other days the tree stock shined. All seem to get tired, and sore when ran hard on fox, bear, or bobcat. Fact is a mentor of this friend, years ago got hold of a young hound from Tom Barnett breeding. That hound impressed him so much as a combination bear, cat & fox hound that after the dog died in a horrible accident, he make a trip to Oregon looking for some more of that blood. Can assure you that hunter had hunted that dog with numerous full & mixed tree & running dogs & knew what a good hound was about. I talked with that hunter on the phone & he told me that was as good as hound as he ever hunted with. I answer this in respect for you, sure others know how I think by now. Al

[Dads dogboy]

Brandon,

Go to the search engine for this same topic and type "David" in as author.

You should find his article on "Hound Overkill" or some such title. It is the definitive OBJECTIVE comparison of the two Style of Hound. He makes no derogatory remarks about either style nor singles out any Breed/Strain as inferior or superior as Bobcat Dogs.

He has reprinted a refined version of this in his forth coming Book!

There is NO Magic Hound Breed/Strain for Consistently Catching Bobcats! Feed what works best for you in your area.

God in his infinite Wisdom made Chocolate, Vanilla, Butterscotch, and many more flavors to satisfy man's many different tastes (also Red Heads, Brunettes, and Blondes). So again dance with the one you like!

My Dad and I look forward to meeting you and all the others at the Gathering at Powers in June.....bet this Subject comes up....what ya think!

[BrandonCombe]

Thanks for the info Al your advice and opinion is always appreciated and yes john I hope to be seeing you at the gathering and all the other guys on this site and here all the good stories I do believe this topic will be brought up again at the gathering it's probably an ongoing debate on tree hounds and running cross but it's always nice to hear other people's opinions and experiences hope to be seeing you all in June

[007pennpal]

I thought all tree dogs originally came from running hounds crossed with early North American treeing curs. Then, all the cur/other than hound looks were bred out. Leaving a treeing coonhound. If that is correct, then, all treeing coonhounds are running dog crosses. This being true, then it also stands to reason that having both running and treeing traits existing in treeing coonhounds, a breeder could isolate more or less treeing traits and more or less running traits without crossing back to pure running hound because both exist in treeing coonhounds.

[dwalton]

One needs to hunt with a good pack of running dog cross to see for themselves. There are people like the Turnner's that have bred these dogs 30 to 40 years and have been very good at it. The treeing dogs have been bred away from the track style that one wants in the crosses. the problem is getting the tree. With the running dogs you get conformation, moving a cold track fast, less off barking and very tough dogs. Like anything else it depends on the dogs breeding and ones opinion. They work for some and not for some. The people up and down the Northwest that catch a lot of bobcats hunt with some running dog blood in them. It has all been said before but as always mans opinion gets in the way of him seeing what so. There is good dogs in all breeds and hunt what works for you. Each to there own Dewey

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Dewey, 007 Pen Pal,

Good Posts on a WORE out subject!

There have been Hunters/Houndsmen who have bred TREEING Walkers for the Traits other than "Strike my Dog/Tree my Dog" competition Coondog Traits. These Hounds were/are bred with attention paid to Conformation, Brains, Nose and other essential Traits for the Game that they will be trained on and pursue. The NEK Hounds of New England come to mind as to this breeding. They have been bred for specific Strong Pts. Other Houndsmen in other areas have done much the same thing.....basically what Mr. Dewey, the Turners and others have done.

Now I and I am sure the East coast Cat Hunters get darn tired of the Ignorant (a person having no education in a subject) so called Houndsmen talking about the LACK of TREE in the Running Hounds. This speaks to the unfortunate lack of experience or travel of most Bobcat Hunters. Historically most Bobcat Hunters do not travel much over 50 miles from home in a lifetime of Cat hunting!

There are Three major Breeds of Running Hounds. They are the Trigg (what has been used the most on the West Coast), July, and the Running Walker. Now there are Strains of all three of these Breeds that have been Hunted on Grey Fox and Bobcat for far LONGER than any of the Treedog Breeds have existed (except the Venerable Blue Tick). Within these Strains there have and still are some Darn Good Treedogs!

I feel that one of the reasons we get so few Southeastern Hunters on here is that they are put off by the Vitriol that is expressed by some against the Talents and Abilities of the Running Hounds. This goes against what they see every day that they are in the Woods. Therefor they don not feel that any thing they may have to say will be taken seriously. Hunters like Mr. Rod Vinson, Poon, Vacathunter, and many many more TREE more Bobcat with "Running Hounds" in 80 ft or taller timber in one year than most of the KNOW IT Alls with Treebred dogs do in a Lustrum!

JMO Dance with them that brung ya!

[Trueblue]

Mr. Dewey, 007 Pen Pal,


I feel that one of the reasons we get so few Southeastern Hunters on here is that they are put off by the Vitriol that is expressed by some against the Talents and Abilities of the Running Hounds. This goes against what they see every day that they are in the Woods. Therefor they don not feel that any thing they may have to say will be taken seriously. Hunters like Mr. Rod Vinson, Poon, Vacathunter, and many many more TREE more Bobcat with "Running Hounds" in 80 ft or taller timber in one year than most of the KNOW IT Alls with Treebred dogs do in a Rostrum!
!

Sounds to me like those who are into "running dogs" prefer to get their hands on the ones that TREE.I am just speculating here, but it would be my guess that these guys would have very little interest in ones that have absolutely no TREE in them.If they then breed the ones that have the qualities they desire,one of which would be the ability to tree,then isn't that a TREE bred dog ? Isn't that how tree bred dogs came into existence in the first place ?

[dwalton]

TrueBlue; Yes it is how the tree dogs came about. When I look at the tree dogs today they do not have that ability to move a track like the running dogs do and do not have the conformation and ability to stand up to my hard hunting. I sure there are exception I have not seen one in years. The running dogs that were brought out west and bred up were from the gray fox dogs that had treeing ability in them. In the years past I figured they had to be 1/4 or less running to work for me on treeing. There are 1/2 and 5/8 running dogs out here now that are good tree dogs. Now I come from speaking about straight bobcat dogs. When I ran lion and bear most would learn to tree not so on bobcat dogs. Unless one has hunted with our western bobcat dogs you are comparing apples to oranges. As Cary said most hunters don't get out of a very big area so you see what works for you and how you hunt. Dewey

[al baldwin]

TrueBlue; Yes it is how the tree dogs came about. When I look at the tree dogs today they do not have that ability to move a track like the running dogs do and do not have the conformation and ability to stand up to my hard hunting. I sure there are exception I have not seen one in years. The running dogs that were brought out west and bred up were from the gray fox dogs that had treeing ability in them. In the years past I figured they had to be 1/4 or less running to work for me on treeing. There are 1/2 and 5/8 running dogs out here now that are good tree dogs. Now I come from speaking about straight bobcat dogs. When I ran lion and bear most would learn to tree not so on bobcat dogs. Unless one has hunted with our western bobcat dogs you are comparing apples to oranges. As Cary said most hunters don't get out of a very big area so you see what works for you and how you hunt. Dewey

Dewey, I know you hunt hard & tho have never hunted with your dogs know you have very good dogs. However you often state you seldom have a race that last longer than twenty minutes. And I was told you stated that most of your races were five to ten minutes this last season. While you hunt hard those type of races are tough for me to judge how tough my dogs are. I no longer have skinner & spike in their prime, so foolish of me, but sure wish I had them, to let you see tree stock that might surprise you on how tough they could be. Would love to have cut them loose on the road with those dogs of yours. Dewey there are few walker dogs in this area that don/t have a little running blood in them. But I think some sure have less runnin blood than some think. C. John I realize there are running dogs that have been bred to tree, however at what point are those to be considered treeing walkers? There are good dogs in all breeds, including bluetics. The Clay hounds are hounds you can be proud of. Al

[dwalton]

There are goods dogs in every breed no one will deny that. I missed 3 cats last winter that I jumped, Most races lasted less than 20 minutes. Over 19% of the cats caught were caught on the ground not counting the holes. On the east side as well as west. Now I have not owned treeing bred dogs that have that kind of track record and have not heard of many people that catch many cats on the ground unless they are running running dogs. I am the first to say it does not take a fast dog to tree bobcats and it is not just a fast dog it is the way they run a track and ability to run a cold track and jump track fast. Everyone knows that a dog can't out run it's nose but track style is not speed, track style causes speed on a track. Tim owned a dog that could out run my dogs most of the time but he could not catch a bobcat speed did him no good. How many treeing bred dogs catch bobcat on the ground. I love a good race. like to listen to the dogs work out a bobcat track but the bottom line is I hunt bobcats to catch bobcats. I will breed and hunt dogs to do that, anybody else can hunt what type of dog they want to I have no problem with that. Their is really no argument about running dog versus treeing dogs. Hunt what works for you for what every reason and I will hunt what works for me. Good hunting Dewey

[david]

Historically most Bobcat Hunters do not travel much over 50 miles from home in a lifetime of Cat hunting!

To me personally, this is a very foundational statement in this, or any other discussion about bobcat dogs. I wish it could be at the top of every thread. I might expand it to say "Historically most Bobcat Hunters do not travel outside of their own region". I envy those people and wish I could have had a place to call home and never leave. But it sure has been hard at times to have a discussion with such folks. This is because we all base our understanding of what is true from our own experience of what is true. And we all love absolutes, so we love to make our understanding of what is true an absolute. I do it every day. So do you. Problem is our absolutes are based on our idea of reality which is incomplete. I think there are some absolutes, but they keep changing on me!

Boy, there are some really great discussions going on lately! You guys must be taking your vitamins.

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Al, the Hounds I was referring to above were not Clay Hounds! We are proud of what Dad has done with his Hounds, however there are others who produce as much or more Game than ours. They might do it better, or in a different Style or Manner.....this is why Dad travels to see other Hounds and how they do things so he can make ours better!

I was referring to Running Hounds bred along the East Coast. These Hounds from the 3 major Running Hound Breeds, the Trigg, July and Walker can trace their pedigrees back into the mid-1800s. In the late 1840s and early 1850s the predecessors to the Walker Hound had crosses to Tennessee Lead, a cross bred Deer/Red Fox hound in some lines. Excepting these, all lines of Walker Hounds and the other Major Breeds have nothing except American, Irish and English Fox Hound in their backgrounds for 150 years or more.

The main Fox Hound Registry the International Fox Hound Stud Book does not and never has let any "Single Registered" meaning cross bred Hound be mated into any Pure Bred Breed. Therefor Breed integrity has been maintained (owner integrity or lack thereof has caused more than one Breeder and his/hers Hounds to be removed from the Stud Book).

A good way to get into a wrasseling scrap with the owner of one of these Hounds is to say that it either looks like a TW or must have some TW bred into it because it Trees so Good. This would be as bad as accusing the Hounds owner of having Voted for Obama!

These Hounds would in No way fit the AKC or UKC Breed physical standard for TW Hounds. But furthermore there is big difference in how they attempt to handle a Track they are pursuing. They even tend to Locate and Tree their quarry in a different manner; they tend to wind the Game up a tree from a short distance away from the tree rather than smelling what tree trunk the varmint climbed.

These Strains of Hounds were bred by Houndsmen like Mr.s Louis Jordon, Percy Flowers (his Grey Fox Hounds), and Mr. Glen Mullis. All of these men have or had lots of disciples for their programs who are carrying on the breeding of these game getting Hounds. Hounds who ran their quarry to catch it or put it in a Tree, not follow it around till the varmint decided to climb or crawl in a hole. Hounds who can Hunt every day, and except for an injury, run multi Races a day ranging from 20 min to a couple hours. Do this in miles and miles of heavy briars, water, crops, heat, frozen ground, sandy ground, limestone covered ground and many other challenging terrains and conditions.

Folks like Mr. Rod Vinson, Jim Modlin, Glen Willoughby, Tody Smith, Charles Tyre, Charlie Curlin and many more raise these Hounds like the Masters before them did. Lots of thought goes into their matings and lots of time is spent in the woods making Hounds and enjoying the Music made!

Just as the Competition Coon Huts have hurt the functionality of the Tree Bred Hounds, Field Trialing and Pen Running have hurt the functionality of all Breeds of the Running Hound. As with the Treebred Hounds there are STILL some Very Good Lines of Running Hounds out there which are Bred to produce the Game of your Choice with Style!

[dwalton]

C. John Clay; Great post well said. It has a lot of information on running dogs that most of the people out here don't know. Thanks Dewey