Old lion Tracks

[Idcurs]

When I was younger most lion hunters always want a cold nosed dog???Now that I am older and have caught a lot of game with dogs I don't want a cold nosed dog!!!!Looking back over 30 plus years I just don't remember trailing that many day old or older lion track that were caught.Did it make good dry ground type dogs ----YES.Did it make game catchers--so-so.Why trail a older track when the odds are way against you.You do get lucky and trail into a kill and catch the lion--sometimes.But a big tom moving country you may never warm it up to ever get close.Or you hit that sunny windy side of a ridge and nothing.Now I don't want a two day old trailing dog,I want one that can take last nights track and catch it TODAY.These dogs are a lot more fun and and I would rather catch a lion than trail one.I know many will always want that cold nose dog,but you really don't need it.

[driftwood blue]

Matter of perspective..
a lot of the old lion hunters were getting paid bounty and mostly for the ones killing stock...
when they got word of a stock killer, often times the trail was anywhere from several hours old to a few days old.

the ranchers paying for the catching of the lion wanted that one that was killing the stock gone... if they did not see results they usually got someone else

was not a matter of hunting for sport.-

[MThound]

I'll stick with a cold nosed dog. I've caught plenty of lions from 2 and 3 day old tracks. Many of the biggest toms I have ever caught were from the old froze in tracks. Conditions can ruin a fresh track at times, and my cold nosed ones have caught many a marginal cat. Never had a problem with the fresh ones, in fact my lab will run anything that is under 24 hours old..lol Guess I would rather have the option and chance to catch a critter, than no chance at all.

[slowandeasy]

This is just my thought. There is a difference between a cold nosed dog that can handle a cold track. And a dog that not only can't handle a track. But when one is found. Not only does it not no what direction the game is traveling, it doesn't care. Not saying sometimes these son of a guns might not help ya occasionally. But I know what kind I wanna surround myself with.

Take care, Willie

[Idcurs]

If the bounty was the issue a 4 and half newhouse,has caught way more lions out west for bounty than any hounds!!!!!It does not eat when hanging and just waits till the lion comes back to the kill.In my younger days I hung out with three very famous ADC hunters.They all had dogs but they caught a lot more lions with newhouse longsprings.When they had time they would work a track but if they had many calls a longspring did the work.And it caught the lion on the cow kill.I know you can catch lion on days old tracks,and like was posted some times a very cold nosed dog will trail backwards.I the dirt and rocks of N.mex,Az,Nev, Utah Texas,Cali many times when a dog strikes you will be hard pressed to find a track.If have hunted with a lot of guys that have very cold nosed dogs in the dirt and after riding 3or 4 miles only to see a lion track going the way we just came from-turn them around and start back.

[Cowboyvon]

I've talked to some pretty good lion hunters and most say all they need is a dog that will take an over night track. Like Warner Glenn said back when they had those real cold nosed hounds they did a lot of trailing but not much catching.

I believe a lot would have to do with your lion population, how you like to hunt, and what conditions you hunt in. I have trailed 2 day old tracks in pretty tough conditions,we didn't catch the lion but I really enjoyed watching the dogs work and being able to follow the lion through the country and seeing where he traveled. Now if I had the time and if I had an idea where the lion was heading I could of picked up and went around and tried to pick that lion up a little fresher but I am usually content on watching the dogs trail knowing they are on a lion track. I guess a lot depends on what you want out of it...

[ALEX]

I see your point Idcurs, and I think it is valid. I agree to a certain extent. It is true as these other fellas have said, that it is a matter of perspective and what the hunter wants to get/see in the way his hounds work. It sure seems that a fair number of sport hunters, guides, and outfitters are opting/breeding for a warmer nose because of the reasons you stated-----the odds are in the hounds favor of catching up to that critter the same day, which is important in the outfitting industry. As I understand it, many of those in wolf country in the lower 48 don't let their hounds fool with old tracks, as that would mean the they would be even more vulnerable as they steadily cold trail a lion for hours upon hours. Turning out on fresh tracks is safer in that regard, thus reducing the demand or need for a colder nosed hound. Many would say, the cold nosed hunting hound is on its way out. It certainly is in the world of competition coon hounds.

Maybe some fellas still want to keep hounds that will rub their noses raw on dirt, sand, rock, ice, and crusted snow as they trail relentlessly after a critter they may or may not get that day. Maybe for the novelty of it, and maybe for the functional use of it. I feel it's both. You had said you want your hounds to catch, not trail all day. Lots of folks find the "journey" (trailing) to be a bit more exciting and fascinating than the "destination" (catching).This seems especially true with those who have the means to stay with their hounds on foot or horseback as they work out the trail. To each his own. A cold nose offers versatility in a dog with less environmental limitations than one with a warmer nose.

Those who hunt their hounds on other critters besides lions can still reap the enjoyment and benefits of hunting cold nosed hounds in a more satisfying way that involves quite a bit of trailing but much better odds of the hounds running down their prey by days end than with lion hunting. By this I mean, a hunter could put his hounds on or let them take up the coldest bobcat, coon, or maybe even bear track and be reasonably comfortable that his hounds will be looking up at it in relatively short order compared to a cold lion track. Simply because these tree game do not roam as vastly as lions will and their ranges are much smaller at any given time. So one could expect some good, productive cold trail work followed by a jump, chase, and finally a tree all well before the sun goes down if all goes right. The territorial nature of these other game animals will better cater to the use of a cold nosed hound by today's "modern houndsmen" as there will more than likely be far less ground to be covered on a cold track up to the point of jumping these other animals than with mountain lions on the average.

[1bludawg]

Many years ago i wrote an article in Full Cry Magazine on cold nose hounds.They are not for everyone.I like them because i think you can catch more game with them in the long term.When conditions are bad and/or game is scarce they really shine .Also you can hunt behind other hunters and trail old tracks they don't want to fool with.You don't jump them all but a good hound Will catch some of them.A dog has to have a cold nose for me to keep but as i said they're not for everyone .

[Idcurs]

25 years ago I had one of the coldest nosed I and many other hunters had ever seen.He would smell a lion track many days old.He would trail a three day old track and none of the dogs could help(did'nt know there was scent).Now I bred him and got a couple very cold trailing dogs out of him.And I guided a lot so any track that we found was taken,it just seamed that of all the tracks that were older than last nights,were a lot of trailing and not much catching.now I know some of you will always want one like this,I just want and end result---not just trailing.I have hunted with some very good lion hunters out west and they have cold nosed dogs,but most will tell you they don't catch many days old tracks either.I don't guide anymore and just hunt with buds and my boys.

[1bludawg]

Idcurs,I know what you mean .I think it was Mike Leonard that said cold trailing can be monotonous,tedious work.Sometimes i want to pull out what hair i have left ! I guess that's why we have 7 breeds of hounds and several breeds of curs.We can search out the breed that suits our individual tastes. Good hunting!

[Chris Todd]

Idcurs, I would have to agree with you on alot of what you are saying. But I for one love the cold trailing hounds. But to each his own. For alot of hunters with limited time to hunt taking a two day old track may not make alot of sense. Where I hunt you cant count on cutting another track. So you take what track you find and do your best to catch it. I have seen times here in Arizona when we havent gotten rain for 3-months. Where a night old track was hard to trail. So if you pass those tracks up all you are left with is getting lucky and bumping into a lion. So the grinding pounding lion hounds are sorely needed to catch these lions. So it comes down to how a person likes to hunt. If you are willing to wait for better trailing conditions the weather will eventually change. If you hunt 6-days a week Sept-June like I do you need a versital hound.
To show how I hunt and use my cold trailing hounds, Id like to tell a couple quick stories.
The is from a few years ago when my Scout dog was still my lead dog. I was then as I am now hunting two packs of hounds. One pack all males, the other all females. I had my females out on a big rim and struck a big tom track. Well the females took him down this rim pretty quick. Then he dropped off into a big canyon. The rims were real high and steep. Where the tom decided to come out the hounds couldnt. By the time I got them out it was late afternoon. So I called it quits for the day. The next day I got to where the tom came out of the bluffs at daylight. I knew Scout would pick him up right off. Even though the track had to be at least 24-hours old. Scout started the track like it was a night old track. And even though it took almost all day we did overtake take this big tom. And bring him to bay in some bad bluffs.
The next hunt took place this past winter. My male dogs started this track. My redtick hound Bonaparte was doing most of the work on this track. He kept the track moving through the morning and into the afternoon mile after mile. I would see a track and then maybe a scratch under a cedar tree. I gave up on this track near dark and several miles from camp.
The next day I was saddled in the dark and heading for where I left off. This day I had Josie, Bonapartes littermate. If anything she is a colder nosed dog than Bonaparte. Also I had Molly a daughter to my old Scout, and she was getting pretty hard to beat on a tough lion track. Well we went to where I left off the day before. And Josie picked up where her brother left off the day before. Molly joined in and they moved the track slowly for about 4-miles. Then I heard the rest of the pack join in, and I knew they had him jumped. I hurried and got up high on a rim just in time to see a big tom lion running for the next canyon. With 6-females on his tail. And then that moment of silence before the hounds locate treed. I could go on and on with stories of cold trailing hounds being the main reason a lion was caught. Everyone is entitled to their opion. So will the coldnosed hound become a thing of the past? Not as long as I can still climb on my Hoss.

[Mike Leonard]

I have said cold trailing can be very tedious, and monotinous work especially for the hunter. Cold trailing dogs like nothing better than trailing and dogs like Chris Todd's Old Scout have been bred for generations with a thought in mind. That thought is catching a lion in the driest most inhospitable trailing condition one can imagine.

There are a lot of lions caught and killed in the area that I live every year. Most however are taken during the snowy months and in higher elevations. Very few lions are caught here on bare ground conditions other than those that have been on a fresh kill or those that by chance are rousted out of their layup bed. The reason for this is a combination of several factors. Most of the areas are either sand based or clay based soils usually in a combination of both. You can be trailing one minute on sand and move up or down a few hundred feet and you are on hard packed clay where you can't even see a track. The elevation is high and the relative humidity for most of the year is very very low. Add to this a lot of daily wind, and over 300 days a year of brilliant UV penetrating sunshine and there is just not much to trail on.
True some areas are better than others but the bulk of lion habitat that is suitable for sustaining lions with cover and prey species and not much human activity are covered with sandstone bluffs, and short sage flats with very limited water. You can ride these areas a lot even knowing that lions are present at times by their markers and still never get a bark out of a most hounds even experienced hound who have caught lots of lions on other conditions.

Why is that you say?

The lion scent is so fleeting in areas like this and under these conditions that at times a lion just about has to be standing in his tracks for the average lion hound to trail. This is where the extreme cold trailing lion dog is invaluable. that dog will tell you more than any field study guide can teach you.

A short story to this point.

I have a friend who is a very good lion hunter and hunts a great deal on bare ground , and is usually in the saddle all day about every day. This person's hounds handle the best and are broke off unwanted game. This person knows where to look for lion sign and can really read sign and can usually tell you by a glance what kind of lion made that track or mark and just about how old it is without getting off a horse. This person's dogs were honest and when a good trail was found they were all ion doing their very best, but this hunter exclaimed to me one day.

You know I ride all this lion country flat on a monthy basis and I just don't hardly ever strike a decent lion track and seldom get a bark. Well I have had the same experience many times, and it will just about make you want to quit. Well as luck would have a fellow called me one day and said I have to cut down on my hounds and I have this older male dog who is slowing down a little but is still pretty good and one thing for sure he is super cold and you can't walk him over a lion track. He is an old strain dog and he knew that I had some of the same breeding in my pack. I told him I was pretty loaded up with hounds at the time b ut that I would mention it to a friend of mine.

So the person I described earlier said you bet I will buy that dog. Well a few weeks went by and then I got a call from that perosn and this is what I was told. First a thank you for letting them know about the dog and then an explaination. This hunter said. Mike I have been riding the same circles I always rode with my dogs but since I put this old dog in with them we trail a lion just about everytime we go out. I know now I was just riding over tracks that were too cold for my other dogs to want to start. I asked, well once this old dog starts the tracks how do your other dogs react? Oh they come right over and honor him and usually in a few minutes they are in there trailing with him and many times a couple of them take the track away from the older slower dog in a little while.

So why didn't those dogs pick up and trail those same tracks before she got that old cold nosed strike dog? You tell me but I have seen it hundreds of times and it will just about make you want to chew nails! But some dogs are bred and dialed to strike very faint trails and go to work on them and they are an inspiration to other dogs that are just not programmed for that. Experience is one thing and many dogs learn to trail old tracks and do a good job but I have come to my own conclusion about true strike dogs in horrible country. They are worth their weight in gold and yes they are scarce as hen's teeth cuz most people just don't hunt that way anymore.

In this fast paced world of high tech and right now mind sets the true old strain cold trailing hound is a thing from the past. You may get a lucky break once in awhile and find one of those dogs in any breed or combination of breeds but to have a high degree of these type of dogs in your pack it takes careful consideration and performance based breeding.

I had the pleasure a week ago to set and visit with several of the most famous dry ground lion hunters left today. These men have caught multiple hundreds of lions and one of them who is in his 60's said he had never caught a lion in the snow.

When asked they said the secret to their success was very simple. if you don't have the right hounds you are not going to stay in this business and continue to hunt in the traditional manner. You will either resort to trail cameras, road drags and quads and multiple track scouts with cell phones and radios or you will move to deeper snow areas where you can find fresh tracks or you will just quit.

Or you will get and agent and maybe become the new Mountain Man reality show! LOL!

[al baldwin]

Those type hounds were very desirable when bobcat hunting here. Al

[Idcurs]

Mike first of let me tell you I started lion hunting with my grandpa in Showlow Az.He had B&T's.All we ever did was ride and watch the dogs workon old liontracks and we caught some that was 1968 I was 10 years old.I have rode behind a lot of very cold trailing hounds in my life with some very good hound guys,Randy Epperson,Steve Smith,Jared Nichols,and Larry Hendriks.And watched the dogs work an old track then get up the next day and go back and work it again,I and these guys all think some times you just cross another or hit a lion coming back.And there are many more times that you just TRAIL.When I guided I wanted a super cold trailing dog to start tracks but many times we just trailed--I did catch some but it was a low%.

[newby]

It sure is nice to at least have the option to trail a dirty old track just in case you can't find one of those night old tracks. I don't have anything in my yard like what these desert hunters are talking about, but I have one that's a heck of a lot colder nosed than the other two and sometimes it's made the difference between starting a track and sometimes catching it and standing in the road trying to coax the dogs to at least try. I gotta say, I sure like watching him stick his nose in a track, knowing a cat walked there and scratching at it so he can crank up on it.