We have had several discussions on Starting Pups. Here is Dad today with our latest batch of Pups getting them started on Cats. Pups are 17 days old…kittens 6 weeks.
Mark, here is the pair that Dad has in mind for you….don’t the female (on the right) look Catty!
Seriously Play and Interaction even at this young age can help a Hound develop the skills it needs later in life when the Cats have shorter tails and playtime is over!
Nice looking pups! And that female definently looks catty. Seeing Finney and MeMe makes me a little homesick, tell your mom to keep them hoodlums that are showing up there this weekend in line and dont take no crap off of em. Have a good hunt!!!!!
Carey, there is way too much black in that litter, if im not mistaken in my last visit to arkansas mr finney told me that only a red dog can run a cat in those tough arkansas briars, haha. Good picture of meme with the pups. Hope to make it out there agian to visit the whole family agian this thanksgiving, and see some dog work. perk
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
8 weeks, 6 weeks is too young! Seriously, I start at 8 weeks with "come" and with showing them baby critters like what your dad is doing. The reason is that from 7-13 weeks their brains are writing the programs for what beings they will accept as non-dangerous. From 12-19 weeks they are writing programs for what sounds and physical experiences they will be alright with.
Someone put up the actual breakdown of psychological event times in a pups life a while back but those are the two that I work with the most.
Dr. Scott proved more than helpful. In his studies he had uncovered a whole series of critical periods in the life of a puppy which directly affect the way he will behave as an adult. These critical periods apply to all breeds of dogs and fall into five categories: 1) Birth to the 21st day: During this period it is impossible to teach a puppy anything. His brain is like an electrical circuit without power. The puppy's only needs are food, warmth and his mother. Says Pfaffenberger, "This was basic knowledge about dogs which had not even been suspected through the thousands of years in which men and dogs have lived together." First glimmer 2) The 21st to the 28th day: Abruptly on the 21st day the brain begins to function, and a puppy not only becomes capable of learning but will start to learn whether or not he is taught. During this fourth week a puppy must continue to have the absolute security of his mother; for at no other time in his life will emotional or social upsets (being left alone, frightened by loud noises, moved to a strange place) have as harmful or lasting effect. 3) The 28th to the 49th day: This is the time when a puppy starts to venture from his mother to investigate the world around him. Now he can learn to recognize his master, to respond to voices, to other animals and toys. The end of this period is the best time for a puppy to be weaned and taken to a new owner. Under no circumstances, however, should the puppy be weaned and then left in the kennel with his mother to wonder why he is not feeding as he did before. 4) The 49th to 84th day: At 7 weeks, although the pup is still physically immature, his brain has attained adult form. He can be taught to obey simple commands like sit, come, heel and fetch. But any training at this stage must be informal. The instruction periods must be brief, and there should be no punishment if the puppy fails to respond to a given command. For, during this period, what the puppy learns is not as important as the fact that he learns how to learn. This is also the time when the puppy begins forming his permanent attitudes toward people—those who feed, play with, teach or reprimand him. The kind of relationships he forms will affect his later acceptance of direction and education. 5) The 84th to 112th day: This is the final critical period, the time when the puppy is ready to declare his independence and man and dog decide who is boss. Informal play training must end here and serious adult training begin. However, the advanced training will be fully successful only if simple, informal training occurred earlier. "Regardless of the inherited differences between breeds," says Dr. Scott, "all dogs, when given proper socialization from 3 weeks to 16 weeks of age, will reach a satisfactory level of behavior." With Scott's critical periods as a foundation, Pfaffenberger set up a system of testing and training at Guide Dogs for the Blind. Although his program, described in technical detail in a recent booklet published by the American Kennel Club, has been worked out specifically for lead dogs, its broad outlines can easily be applied to all dogs. Here is the Pfaffenberger formula: •From birth until 5 weeks of age—or during the first two critical periods plus an extra buffer week—a litter should remain with its mother in a small puppy room. •At 5 weeks of age the pups are moved with their mother to a kennel, where they have access to an enclosed run. From the run they see other puppies and mothers, but until the 7th week contact with human beings is limited to the few kennel workers who clean the runs and bring food. First training •At 8 weeks the pups have their first extensive contact with people. One day a week each puppy is given 30 minutes of informal training. He is walked on a leash and shown how to sit, heel and come when called. Most important, he is taught to fetch a rubber ball rolled on the ground. This exercise, Pfaffenberger discovered, is particularly significant because it reveals much about a puppy's willingness to please. After the fetch test the dog is introduced to a succession of new people, new noises and new animals (such as cats), which he may meet in later life. Throughout this phase of training two observers rate each pup on his responses, scoring him from zero to five according to how quickly he learns, how playful or shy he may be and how well he reacts to each new situation he meets. •At the end of the 12th week the pup gets his final exam, scored by a board of eight experts, who decide whether or not to keep the dog for lead training. For the exam, the pup is taken out on a simulated city block, complete with sidewalks, curbs and fire hydrant. He is walked on a leash along the street, past strolling people, past the hydrant and a tricycle or some other object deliberately left in his way. A potentially trainable dog will show definite interest in each of these situations and will not be frightened or bewildered by any of them. The ultimate test the puppy faces is to be confronted by a hand cart being pushed directly toward him. The cart comes right up to the puppy, passes by him, and stops. Then the puppy-is led back to the cart. This, like the earlier fetch test, is particularly important because it is almost certain to bring out any basic shyness, instability or indecisiveness in the dog. After two years of testing and relating the test scores to success in later adult training, Pfaffenberger found that he was able to predict with reasonable accuracy which 12-week-old puppies had guide-dog potential and which did not. But still there was trouble. A large number of the puppies either failed the tests or passed with such low scores that they could not be kept for training. This meant either that the tests were too hard or that the average puppy being born at the Guide Dog kennels was simply not good enough to be trained for lead work. Pfaffenberger talked to Scott and his colleagues again, and together they decided that it was probably the dogs which were at fault. Since these dogs were among the finest of their breed anywhere in the world, the only way to improve them was to develop better strains within the existing stock—that is, to breed dogs which produced high-scoring puppies, and then breed only those puppies which rated highest on the tests. Because the high scorers frequently were in the same family this meant inbreeding and line-breeding—where brother is mated to sister, father to daughter, mother to son, etc.—a practice on which no two dog breeders have ever agreed. The scientists believed such breeding would concentrate and intensify desirable genes to produce superdogs—not canine Jukeses. They were right. Beginning with a magnificent German shepherd named Frankie of Ledge Acres, and working along breeding lines set up by Frankie's owner, William F. Johns, executive director of Guide Dogs, the organization began producing a higher and higher percentage of trainable dogs. Although Frankie died two years ago, through a complex and carefully controlled system of line-breeding (worked out by Johns), his genes still make up [8/16], or 50% (see chart), of the inheritance of the majority of German shepherd litters born at the Guide Dog kennels. Beyond these discoveries in training and breeding, the program at Guide Dogs for the Blind revealed one more significant factor in dog development. That is, no matter how carefully a dog is bred or how high he scores in puppy tests, he may turn out to be worthless for adult training if he is not made part of a family environment in close contact with people by the time he is 12 to 13 weeks old. It is hard to believe," says Pfaffenberger, "that the potential of a superior puppy can be so reduced, but there is no question that many fine dogs of all types have been ruined by remaining too long in the isolation of a kennel." Today 90% of the puppies bred at Guide Dogs for the Blind complete adult training and become lead dogs. Compared with an original 20% to 25% success ratio, such results mark an achievement without precedent. "Our results indicate that we often produce much better puppies than we ever realize," says Pfaffenberger. "There is no reason why comparable testing and breeding programs could not be applied with equal success to the improvement of all dogs, no matter what the purpose for which they are intended."
While this Thread was started partially in jest, there was a Serious Side to it as well! We devotedly believe in EARLY interaction with the Pups. As we have posted before the Three week mark Baylie has named them and has them coming to her for play time.
Mark and Perk,
This Color thing is interesting. Red is a recessive trait. These Pups are out of China a Tri-Colored bitch and Creek a Lemon and White Male. Tri-Colored being dominant that is what 4 of the 6 were....the other two are Homozygous Recessive for the Lemon & White. They even favor their Dad more in structure than the other 4.
Again thanks to all for their comments, Dad is sure enjoying these.....afraid they may be his last.
I have four pups about three months old that I have been letting play and run outside with the cats and their kittens from the spring, have you seen any negative effects from raising pups with the cats like this till they are big enough to start hunting?
We have seen NO adverse issues arise by having Pups up to 10 weeks play with the Cats/Kittens.
When we start running rabbits with them they loose all interest in the Pets....soon you will find them curled up together napping.
Now by 10 weeks the Pups are kenneled albeit in a large pen with a big hill to run up several times a day....feed is at the top....water at the bottom.
In raising the pups around house cats, do you find they grow up considering house cats to be off game ? Do you find it easier to break them off other off game as they get older if they are taught house cats are off game at an early age ? Thanks in advance, Steve
Starting the Pups playing with the Barn Cats seems to have no lasting desire for the Pups to want to Seriously chase or Rough play with Barn Cats after about 10 to 12 weeks.
By that age the Youngsters are doing SERIOUS stuff. 1st with Rabbits then with Grey Fox.
Dads Hounds have been bred for BIDDABILITY for so many generations that they all want to PLEASE you. They seem to learn quickly, starting with the Barn Cats, when a Critter is not making the Boss Happy if they are showing too much interest!
Positive Communication with the Pups starts @ the 3 + week mark. This starts with the Commands to "Come Here" and their names followed by tummy rubbing and lots of cuddling with "Low voice" talk.
Corrections start @ about the 7 to 8 week mark. The Terms "NO" and "Get out of there" are given in a manner that leaves No doubt that "the Boss" is not pleased. When the Pups are scolded about the Cats. It is not long before they learn what is expected of them.
Going forward anytime a Pup shows too much interest in smelling something other than a Bobcat, a scolding is usually all that is necessary to change the Pup's mind. This mostly holds true till a Pup has gained enough age(12 to 16 months) & experience to "Try it's Wings" and show a little independence by barking at those Smells that "Stink So Good" like a Deer or Yote. A lite case of "Thunder & Lightning" will make those Smells "Stink so Bad".
Great discussion, it comes on the heels of me spending a fair amount of time this summer reading Pfaffenberger, Konrad Lorenz and Eberhard Trumler. Reading works by animal behaviorists instead of just "dog training" books has been eye opening, but when the science is backed up by real world houndsman like several of you, it makes it seem even more relevant.
John,
Though not everyone lives in a place that they can do it any more, how do you feel about letting young pups run loose vs penning them and they only get to do "fun stuff" like chase rabbits etc when they are with you ? Does it matter in terms of their handling as they get older ?
Seeing that post earlier with the video of the Master Foxhound handler and David's reply regarding the people at the party being "off game" got me thinking about what off game might all be. Perhaps not limited to just deer, coytotes, etc. as we often think of the term ? Is breaking them off game really a process of teaching them to dislike those smells or is it teaching them to focus on what we are asking them to do ? I'll use a horse training example to explain what I mean- if a horse is afraid of something we want to ride by, what to me is the right approach to dealing with that situation is to get the horse to focus on me and what I want it to do. I can't make the horse be not afraid, I can only ask it to find what I am wanting to be more important than what ever it is afraid of. Seeing that video of those dogs focus on the handler got me wondering about this.
Seriously, I start at 8 weeks with "come" and with showing them baby critters like what your dad is doing. The reason is that from 7-13 weeks their brains are writing the programs for what beings they will accept as non-dangerous. From 12-19 weeks they are writing programs for what sounds and physical experiences they will be alright with.
