Is this the answer to our prayers?

[Dan McDonough]

desertdog said- "How is a sighthound gonna follow a track? Am I missing something?"

Merlo_105 chimed in with- "Yeah this dog sounds like a big hoax, Its missing to much as a dog to be a solid Catdog just a opinion. But if it is to be true then neat but sure is one ugly thing."

I would have said the same thing a while ago. I have since owned a pretty phenominal staghound and heard about several more that run a track. If you'll go and check out Vargy's Coytoe Hunting board, there is a man that goes by Tomcat who's name is Leonard Perry. He told me that he lets his stag pups run lose with his running dogs (running walker's I presume). He said he has seen some of them run all day in the corn with the trailhounds and sometimes the stags are crossing in front of the trailhounds and sometimes they are behind. After seeing first hand my stag Streak run track with great speed and ability. Now, all of these tracks have been warm to hot so I'm not claiming to have seen her work a cold track but what I have noticed about the way she runs a track is that she glides through it and goes on with little effort in a way that I see as being very usefull in it's style. She uses her nose but rarely points here eyes towards the ground, keeping her attention forward. In this way I've seen her pick up the sight or sound of what she is tracking and when that happens there just isn't enough time in the world for a critter to get away very often. It's pretty cool to watch and very efficient. Not having to look where it's smelling is a trait that most cat catchers share but the extreme speed that comes with the sighthounds and their crosses is a at a whole other level. This wasn't as clear to me until I raised and hunted a stag/whippet/lurcher. By the way, I also have a whippet that runs rabbits by scent and hunts them up very well. There is more here than meets the ear, so to speak. Don't believe all of the things you hear about sighthounds or you'll miss out on some serious fun and shorten your list of possible ways to catch cats.

[mark]

When the dust settles and these dogs are developed, will the guys running them be called houndsmen or whippitmen? ...... Sorry, my mind wamders.

[Dan McDonough]

Hey, get a whippet and then tell me about being a whippet man. I would have never thought whippets were nearly as good as a hunting dog even after reading piles of articles and books on the subject. Those little dogs give 1000% every time and you don't have to go through 20 of them to find one that gets it done. You can call me a whippet man any day! There is a lot to admire about the whippet.

Also, if you make your picks right, you can get one in the 23"-24" range and they are very capable, hard hitters. If you want them to do well in the woods you have to raise them there though. If you raise them in the open and expect to hunt them in cover you are going to end up with a whippet skewered on a stick or a metal post or something because, like I said, they go very hard every time out. I'm going to put my whippets in a few jumped bobcat races this winter and see how they get along, but if a whippet lays it's eye on a bobcat, it had better have a hell of a head start.

It's hard to find a whippet with much of a coat on it but if you poke around, you can find them. I have a female also that has a pretty decent coat on her and she'll do fine for most of this winter.

They are a great dog but I would suggest crossing them with a good hard terrier if you want to hunt them every day.

Varying the types of dogs in your pack can lead to some interesting things. After a man puts together a couple of dogs that can get the job done, he has some room to experiment and it can be a lot of fun. Take it from a guy who has hunted with them, they do have something to offer just about any hunt situation,you'd be surprised...I know I was.

[merlo_105]

My choice of dog to build a dog from sure wouldnt be a sight hound, I would start with a English pointer out of American Field Trial lines and go from there. I doubt a whippet or any other sight hound would out gun it in the Timber. Reason's I would choose a Pointer is Health Feet coat stamina drive and nose. Has the same if not more prey drive then alot of other breeds has the brains and has the ability to run head up the whole time. Ithink you would be more ahead starting with one of these rather then a Whippet and a few other of the sight hounds...

[al baldwin]

Nothing wrong with tight mouth hounds if that is how one enjoys hunting. My Dad like to hunt with dogs, but despised a full open trailer. Always told me hounds barked too much & took too long to catch. Thanks to my hunting friend I got a real treat over the weekend, saw a couple cat in the tree, listened to some good hound voices working some tough old tracks. As I listened, as always, could not help realizing the hounds keeping us entertained on the tough trailing times had Zip/s breeding behind them. Tim the ole Buddy hound can still get it done, over the past two weeks he and his helpers treed six cats and one grey fox. Coarse the next two cats might make them look bad. Dan those pictures of your experimental cross are very nice looking dogs & show you have taken very good care of them. Good luck with them. Wishing all a good season Al

[Dan McDonough]

Merlo_105- Do you have some experience with sighthounds? I agree, the right pointer would be another great project but I'm looking for a different kind of dog than I can get from a bird dog. When you spend some time working through what the lurcher men of the UK choose for their crosses you hear mention of very few crosses with bird dogs. When I got into this I thought that a greyhound x pointer cross would be very popular...the opposite is true. I think that the pointer takes to much away from the physical ability of what's possible in a sighthound cross and doesn't impart as much intelligence on the cross as the boarder collie. Also, there's no problem with the amount of endurance of the boarder collie, same goes for the feet.

The stag has a great effect on this cross outside of the physical aspects. If you don't have experience with what the mindset of the stag and how it affects crosses is, it's hard for me to explain what's going on here. In short, the sighthound imparts an "all or nothing" type of approach to catching game that, when tempered with a brainy dog like the boarder collie or other similar type (i.e. bearded collie, kelpie, heeler, etc.) there is some simple magic that happens. It's something that just clicks together in a way that you wouldn't excpect to work SO well.

When I think about it, it's kind of like a samurai sword. It's light in the hand, very maneuverable, has a flexible blade but also has a very hard edge.

Like I stated earlier, I've been researching this stuff for over a decade. If it was that obvious through reading, I would have gone off on this adventure long ago. It wasn't until I pulled the trigger and bought a couple of stags and whippets that I saw first hand what all of the fuss was about. I'm about to find out what happens when it all comes full circle and is put together into a collie-lurcher and I'm already seeing some things I couldn't have guessed. How this type of dog could be so ueful in filling the pot for so many people through hundreds of years in the UK and not continued over here is a bit of a mystery to me but I have a theory on it that I would like to share.

I noticed that the folks in the UK don't like to refer to German Shepards by that name. They call them Alsatians. They are still very sore towards the Germans for the WW's and it carries over into daily life and the way common speech is used. I think that there is a similar thing that went on here in the US. I noticed it in the game laws of many states in the US. ferreting is not allowed in most of the US. This is a time honored tradition in the UK but is largely looked on with disfavor here in the US. Another thing is working den sites. Many states do not allow for the digging of game at their dens. Another is the laws in many states that does not allow any dog owner to willingly let their dog kill any wild game. We all know how absurd that one is. I think that this law has it's roots in the way many folks viewed lurchers in the UK (and still do).

Lurchers in the UK are looked upon as a poor man's dog or the dog of the poacher, Gypsy or traveler. While that may be true, the poachers I have known have had some truly fantastic dogs and they were largely grade dogs of a wide variety of mixes made for the job at hand. Pair that together with the fact that many of the people that came to the US in the early years before the war of independence were not poor. It took a fair amount of money to purchase passage on a ship and start over in the US. It wasn't until the US was fairly well established as a set of colonies that the poor found their way over here in any great numbers. By the time that happened the folks with money and influence had already attained political status and carried with them many of the cultural leanings taught to them in Britan, Scotland, Ireland and the various other countries that now populated the "new land". This has had great effect on the game laws here in the US and still does today. I'm not aware of anyone who has made a great study of this theory of mine but it's what's in my head from my own observations and it explains a lot where it concerns lurchers. You've all experienced this in the way hound hunting is looked at by the general public. There is evidence far all to see nearly everywhere you look.

I'm not here to swim up river on this but, at least for my own interests, I think the lurchers of the old poachers and gypsys deserve a good looking over for the sport of bobcat hunting. I'm not going in blind here. I don't have the will to lay out every thought I've had on the subject but there is certainly a good amount of merit behind the abilities of the better lurcher dogs that is relatively undiscovered here in the US and someone has to take the first step. I'm not the first to use them in the US but to my knowledge, I'll be the first for make a good study of them on bobcats. Look at the number of dedicated bobcat hunters in the US. There are not that many. I think there is a very good possibility that this is just something that hasn't been tried based on a good look at the figures. According to the bible, there is nothing new under the sun. I may not be alone in this and I will be very excited to find that I am not. That's what interested me in this post. Keep an open mind.

[merlo_105]

Dan, I think its neat what your doing and I really hope it works out for you. Im no expert with sight hounds been around alot and thats it. Been around alot of collie's too, I just dont see where anything is gonna be gained by crossing the two. Yeah cross them then cross to a fox hound something could happen. But thats my opinion and I hope Im wrong I would like to see something neat and funky do the job...

[Dan McDonough]

Al- I got one so far that is open on track. Saw it today for the first time. Yap, yap, yap...not pretty but it's loud enough. The poachers and Gypsies would cull that one for something like that. Not stealthy enough.

[twist]

Here is my thought if one has owned a true dog cat hound that can get it done with consistancy there is no need to try and reinvent the wheel. There is full hound strains out there that can do this you just need to look for them and try them. Andy

[Dan McDonough]

Know anyone that goes 5/7 on every litter? Of course not, we would all know who that was if there were such a person. That's my end goal. This is just part one after all.

[moose]

twist - so your saying that hounds are the only good dogs that can consistently catch bobcat?

any one that thinks that are dumber then rocks.

[al baldwin]

I commend you Dan go for it. The problem as I see it here we more often than not find very few hot tracks. Rough terrain often unable to hear big part of the jump, even hunting good hound mouths. With out a hound with a decent cold nose game is very thin. Lots of days all most get is lots tracking without a jump, & when that is happening find most other hunters have experienced the same results. So hope you can appreciate my desire for an open trailing hound, not that I always have every hound with that track style, good mixture can help read how good the track . I sure did not put good though into the snare comment & offer my apology to those who enjoy hunting tight mouth dogs. The catch is not as important to me as when I was young, if all I get is listening to some good hound mouths work a tough track, dogs not standing on head, moving the track as best scent permits, getting to observe dogs at times, consider than a good day. Thanks Al

[twist]

Moose what type dog are you running? I believe i must be dumber than a rock as i have been hunting hounds for well over 30 yrs.anyone been in itthat long has to be short a few lol. Andy

[moose]

my point is that hounds are not the only ones that can consistently catch bobcat or any other game. so you think you know every thing because you have been hunting for 30 years. who cares if some one wants to reinvent the wheel as you and others have said. it his bussiness, not yours. i say to him, go for it and good luck. oh by the way i have 2 mountain curs.

[twist]

Have beer there moose and reread my post never claimed to be to smart. Also believe them curs would be classified as a strain of hound. This part of the country or about any part of the country for that matter, hot nosed sight dogs would not stand a chance on bobcat pure fact unless you have cats in the flat stubble fields. I thought it was illegal to hunt bobcats in your state! Andy