Runnin dogs???

[jcathunter]

Don't you feel that "most" is pretty closed minded? I think, far too often, guys get mixed up in the latest speed craze and keep trying to reinvent the wheel. I admit, I did the same thing. I hunted triggs, curs, you name it. I even got me a high powered Dewey Walton running pup but none of those dogs consistantly caught game. That Dewey dog would flat run a cat with the best of them but, at three years old, he couldn't locate and wouldn't tree worth a lick. Sure, a guy can take a dog like that and add in a me too dog that will locate and tree but I would call neither of those dogs cat dogs by any means.Once I got away from the running stuff, I started seeing far more game. To put it another way, even if dogs catch an equal amount of game hunting alone, I'd rather own the dog that trees 5 cats and locates all of them and gets beat ten times than the dog that trees every single cat and only locates 5 out of 15. You can make a pup with the first dog if they have the drive to surpass the other dog but, the dog that won't locate will just ruin a pup that doesn't locate and stay treed on its own. I've been very fortunate over the years to have some west coast breeding explained to me in great detail and I know of a cross that will be made soon to produce a style and line of dog that has been pretty darned popular over the years and one of the dogs that will be in the cross is a registered walker coondog with the prettiest and most solid tree bark you have seen.

[Ker_man]

Happy New Year guys. I know that it's been said before but here goes again.
Bad thing to generalize too much. Yup a lot of tree dogs have been bred with coon in mind at the expense of conformation, tracking, too much tree and not enough bottom and heart. Look to the(some of) bear bred for the grit, endurance and track. That said i think that even most of them can't take the day after day constant running that a running dog will. Some will do it but it will sure show on them.
When folks speak of running dogs, not many mention a lot of the pen bred hounds with all kinds of holes (faults) can't track, over run, run wild at checks. No one speaks of the slow ones that can be slower than a lot of the tree dogs,some don't open much and some don't stick.
I know that there are some good old lines out there and they would be impressive but i have not personally been around them.
I'm not picking at any one. Just some of my thoughts on it.

[slowandeasy]

Quote jcathunter : I think, far too often, guys get mixed up in the latest speed craze and keep trying to reinvent the wheel.


Your not understanding the benefits of crossing some of the blood into modern day tree dogs. It is not about reinventing the wheel. ( looking for grey hound like hounds ) Speed is not even one of the most sought after traits. Speed is probably the absolute worst adjective that should be used pertaining to over taking game. What over takes game is relentless pressure, with very few losses. With the understanding that a average hound has more than enough speed to over take any wild animal. It is lung capacity that is the wild animals down fall.


Quote jcathunter : I'd rather own the dog that trees 5 cats and locates all of them and gets beat ten times than the dog that trees every single cat and only locates 5 out of 15.


This sounds a little like what I said in my earlier post. Personally I wouldn't own either. But that is why I believe we can benefit a little from the running dogs. And others get hung up on the word running in front of hound. Maybe we should just say superior track dogs that can take a lickin and keep on tickin. Either way we all pay for their feed and if they make us happy I guess that's all that counts.


Take care, Willie

[jcathunter]

I said I would RATHER, not that I wanted to own either. I was trying to illustrate the point that, no matter how well you run the race, if you don't cross the finish line and punch the clock, you still lose.
I do understand the benefits of breeding in the running blood but I am also at a loss to find anyone whom I believe is doing it right. I know a man that did it right but he has passed away. I stood in his living room and gave him a hard time for looking at a coonhound bloodlines magazine and I was quickly shown the error of my ways. Basically, a little goes a LONG ways with running blood and, if you don't put "some tree back into these dogs" you wind up with the problems that I see quite often on the west coast. Take a look at the classifieds sometime. Its not uncommon to see the words "not treeing yet" "weak on the tree" "at the tree but not treeing" in FAR too many young dogs.

[al baldwin]

I Basically, a little goes a LONG ways with running blood and, if you don't put "some tree back into these dogs" you wind up with the problems that I see quite often on the west coast. Take a look at the classifieds sometime. Its not uncommon to see the words "not treeing yet" "weak on the tree" "at the tree but not treeing" in FAR too many young dogs.

Seems hard to argue with that statement. My experience has been both running blood & tree blood, was sore and stiff the next morning after a three hour or longer run. Both would run the next day but you sure knew they had ran hard the day before. And anyone who says a running dog or tree stock can run those type races day in and out with out serious conditioning, would need to see to believe. Believe there has been friendly invite, to put the tree stock against the running stock, a bluetick at that. Al

[slowandeasy]

Quote jcathunter : Take a look at the classifieds sometime. Its not uncommon to see the words "not treeing yet" "weak on the tree" "at the tree but not treeing" in FAR too many young dogs.


In all fairness. Do you think the above adds in the classifieds every where have anything to do with the dishonesty that is so prominent in the hound world. And those descriptions still able thieves to peddle their culls.


Now to be absolutely fair! You will never see adds that say made 200 trees with this young prospect this season. And mostly just got to admire the trees. You don't see any of those type adds, cause they won't sell the culls.


At this current time in history. If I were a betting man I would bet you see much more of the later when it comes to tree dogs and bobcats.


Take care, Willie

[jcathunter]

Willie, I'm not quite sure where dishonesty comes into play here. People sell young dogs that do everything but tree and you are saying they are lying to sell a cull? It sounds to me like a common problem and people don't feel they are a cull because they do run a track nicely. That brings me to the point that you keep trying to bring up about false treeing. There is a big difference in a locate/tree dog and a dog that just falls out slick treed. What type of timber do you hunt in that you cannot understand what I am talking about when it comes to locating? I can think of a few "coon" dogs from years past that did not miss a cat off the box and they were locating machines that were simply as accurate as they get. They did not slick tree. Finding cats in old growth or thick hemlock patches is an art.

[moose]

al

are you talking about mike kemp or brent ottesons (i think that is how to spell his last name)?

[twist]

Bottom line is if they catch cats CONSISTANTLY it doesnt matter what the breed is. Andy

[tman308]

I don't want to start a color debate however my Nance Walker dogs do really well day in and day out during bear season. In the winter season however during the crusty snow the feet on my blue tick and blue/walker dogs hold up better day in and day out. I run a mixed pack but none of my dogs were bred for coon hunting they are all big game hounds. Some are faster than others. One is too fast and catches a lot on the ground which keeps me well versed on staple guns. I personally don't have any running blood but I wouldn't be against it if it improved my pack. like it has already been said it really just depends on what you want in your pack and your purpose for the hound.

[greyfoxexterminator]

(Jc) what do u mean what u hear on the west coast?

[jcathunter]

(Jc) what do u mean what u hear on the west coast?

You mean the problems I see on the west coast? If so, I mean the weak treeing dogs. The dogs that cannot locate and dogs that won't tree until they are 2-4 years old. I am talking about dogs that may be absolutely great in everything they do except locate and tree.

[Flip]

Tree dogs are very important but putting one in a tree is harder here than u would think it's worth the time and effort it takes to make a good tree dog

[jcathunter]

Flip, I'm from Oregon and just recently moved to Idaho. I found locating to be very important in Northern Ca because of the size of the trees in the areas I hunted.

[jcathunter]

I also want to point out that, I've been told I can come across as a jerk sometimes when I type stuff and that is not my intent. I'm just trying to discuss and give my opinions and I am, in no way, someone whos qualified to give advice. So, if I'm coming across wrong, I apologize.