question about line breeding

[cobalt]

Unreal_tk- This where the whole breeding thing gets very ticklish. There are no short answers, as there are no short cuts. This is why the "running dos???" post is a no right answers situation. It's just a bunch of guys hoping for instant gratification (for the most part). I am no breeder, but do breed dogs occasionally. The reason I say this is because in order to proliferate a quality line of dogs, one must be highly educated in the art. That does not mean degrees from a college, but rather an understanding of the probabilities in YOUR OWN dogs. Trial an error are the essentials. Success is determined in your own mind. An honest mind is essential to the task. Time varies on how long it takes to achieve the goal. Generations of dogs produced is what time represents. Quality of dogs vs number of dogs produced is how successful the program is judged. In the end, one must understand the undertaking and probably the most important part is talent. Some people got it some people don't.

Sooo, I think you could inbreed closely again and again, but if you don't have the talent to look at your dogs and see what is needed, you may fail. It's like walking in a dense fog on a boulder patch in a maze. If you go too fast, you fall, if you stand in one spot, you go nowhere, if you go the wrong direction you get lost. Choose carefully where and how you tred. You never know if you've made a mistake until you take the step.

[dawger]

One thing that I have alway understood when you breed close is if your foundation stock isn't sound or of good genetic health don't use it. inbreeding will not create deformities it WILL uncover any hidden problems that the dogs may have.
I would have to guess the lab that was doing the inbreeding program ( in fullcrys example) didn't start with superior specimens and just used what ever they could get their hands on. in that scenario I would be surprised if they didn't get better results from random breedings.
Remember all the different breeds of stock we have today didn't just happen. We humans bred these animals for certain traits and then inbred them to fix the traits.

[southern fox]

a mama back to a son is inbreeding to close wont work u will multiply every fault that is there , u can breed daddy back to daughter that will work but not son to mama, line breeding is what you want been doing it 30 years, everything I have is kin, it has to be mixed with a 1/4 being almost different, is the best

[Rimrock]

Years ago my hunting partner had an accidental breeding between mother and son. Both were dead broke, excellent coon and bear dogs. He kept a female pup and I kept a male. The rest were culled. The female was about as pretty a pup as you could want. The male turned out to be bow legged and chuckle headed with odd looking teeth. Ugly!! Neither ever acted like they had any interest in hunting anything. We culled both at about a year old while their mom and dad were looking at a bear. It seems that all the latent bad traits cropped out in these two.

[Unreal_tk]

Thanks Cobalt.

Southern fox,

How is breeding a daughter to a father any different than breeding a son to the mother genetically speaking ? I have a problem understanding that. I've heard this argument before.

[Jkohnke]

I don't know the silence of it but if you study line bred dogs papers a male back to his mother is almost never seen. Lots of male to daughter. Also lots of crossing litter mates and that offspring is bred back to their grandfather. Look up on the chase or hunters horn. That's the registry for running walkers and July lots of close breeding in the early years of these breeds. Some of the papers on some dogs I owned 20 years ago would have the same male / female cross in a 5 generation pedigree up to 5 or 6 times. Those old breeders in the early years knew what they were doing. Breed best to the best and hope for better and cull the rest. Just my thoughts.

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

Go to the Search engine and type in Breeding Information.

There are several threads in the Archives with page after pages of Scientific Studies on Breeding Dogs/Hounds.

Many myths have been repeated here in this thread.

Cobalt has passed on much Wisdom!

Mother X Son will build on the Strong Points of the Damn but will un mask or expose any faults she may have..... ruthless Culling will remove these Faults after several generations....most people do not have the TIME &/OR GUTS to follow through with this!

[SASS]

cant resist this one.lol inbreeding wont give you faults for the first or second breeding but it WILL show you the faults the dogs already had. if you cull the bad traits out before you inbreed you wont have the faults . you will however need a out cross for the vigor. I like a out cross from another tight strain or half blood from my strain. some of the best ive seen was from a brother sister cross done this way. jmo

Exactly!!! 100% agree. Some of the best performance dogs were created that way.

Have you ever heard of double bred or triple bred? Sorry I could not resist either since this is something I have a lot of experience with.

[SASS]

I do disagree with not breeding son to mother. I dont have a problem with it, and have done it with good outcome. I think the problem comes from when people breed a unproven or just a good or okay gyp back to her son. I think when you are trying to breed a line or a "family" of dogs you breed around your very best period. whether that is a gyp or a stud. JMO to each their own.

[Diana]

The rule of inbreeding is simple: The tighter you breed the harder you cull. Inbreeding intensifies traits by making homozygous (double/same) genes. If there is good, you are doubling up on the good, if there is bad you are doubling up on the bad. It will tell you really fast what the genetic makeup of your dogs is. Following is an article on breeding performance/working dogs that I think you might find useful...perhaps not.

[Diana]

NM

[Snow walker]

Not much into this breeding stuff but a good friend of mine was at one time. His day job was artificially breeding livestock, cows horses, and swine. He also was a big time German short hair lover along with Setters.
In his short-hairs and Setters he always added new blood to his line from some of the very best dogs in the world.
I bought a German short hair from him and then later on he gave me a German short hair crossed with one of his Setters..

What I noticed from his breeding program was all of his dogs were birdie and also took very little training (just basic commands) and were born to hunt. It all came natural to them.
Wish coon hounds or coyote dogs came that easy.
Looking at my short-hairs pedigree line it goes all the way back to Germany..
IMO stay away from breeding back to what you have and try to add new blood then breed back and then add new blood and use the best hunters not best show dogs...

[Dads dogboy]

Snowwalker,

GSP's are some of the Best Line/Bred Dogs to be found anywhere! The Archives here on BGH have a long detailed Article on Breeding behind GSPs.

Your friend was probably "bringing in new blood" from the same line....few people have the resources to keep more than a few dogs, therefore they go to someone who has Dogs closely related to his.

You have just commented favorably on the "Natural" abilities of the "Tightly Bred" mating.

Again Folks, go to the Archives and the above Posts and READ what Dedicated Hound/Dog Breeders have done for literally Hundreds of years.

A Very good Houndsman who was a Phd in Agriculture at Texas A&M in the mid 1900's made this quote....it has LOTS of Merit!

"I would rather my Good Female Hound get Rattlesnake bit rather than breed her to a Hound with more than 20 different Dogs in a 5 generation pedigree".

Think on that one Folks!

[twist]

If culling is not an option then a person should not be breeding hounds. Mother to son is also a very good cross. Andy

[houndnem]

I have inbred my dogs for about 12 years. there are benefits and problems with it. I finally got too tight with a cross 3 years ago. I bred my bitch to her grandson and they had a few great litters. I took a female from that litter and bred her back to the dad. she only had 3 pups. she would not take care of them. I bottle fed one and kept it alive. the dog is amazing, but I still think the mom not taking care of them was mother natures way of culling them. I also noticed that with each inbreeding the dogs got smaller, which wasn't a problem for me, because I like em small. I think keeping the same blood breeding to each other is good as long as you don't get them too close.