Runnin dogs???

[david]

I might have to hire Mark , your other big brother. I can tell he is proud of you too

[1bludawg]

Sometimes a bystander might wonder whats going on in some of these debates.One thing that might help is to remember what was said in previous discussions,utilize whatever facts are available to you and then throw in some common sense and you can form a educated opinion on the subject at hand .

[mike martell]

David

Thanks for the fine overview and taking the time to write it all out. Some guys are blessed with the ability to put it in writing accordingly....Sometimes these post get sideways. I know in talking to a few hound friends, just about the time a thread gets rolling along about a certain topic, we can't make it too many pages without it erupting.....I like to learn about the origin of hounds, hound/running dogs and find myself sitting on the side lines until the smoke clears enough to jump in. Buddy said it best about all of us....We are a bunch of driven individuals, houndsmen and personalities like no other breed and he refuses to micro manage.(I mixed up the quote but you get the idea)

I too miss the wisdom of Ike! Why do you think Mike Leonard is reserved when it comes to weighing in on other threads? Bare ground lion hunters could learn from his wisdom. You have some solid based bobcat catching perspective only achieved by going leaps and bounds beyond the average houndsmen, some in the bobcat section are crucified for expressing an opinion that appears far fetched. Example, rigging? Remember when it couldn't be done? For all the rest, Simply look beyond the personality and grab this priceless information while it is available! Reflecting back many years of trial and error and not having this in front of us at our finger tips, made for some rough sailing! Talk about taking the long way around the barn! Here is the final point, I hope Dewey and Al keep posting and Dan D., Just because you only run coyotes? Catching that many is interesting to me, you must have some fine hounds and I would like to see how your dogs are bred? In the middle of the two posts, I grabbed some useful information about our past hounds. This board is a world of knowledge and we need not forget ....Sure wished I would of kept those old pedigrees on them dogs David, as my memory is not that good any more!

Mike

[al baldwin]

Dewey and I are always going to disagree on some things, does not mean it/s personal & I hate him, just means we both call like we see it. I reread my one post and admit, came on stronger than needed. As for Dewey blowing smoke up my ass, people being doing that my whole life so if he does will be nothing new, and when talking to old friends have better things to talk about than Dewey. Dewey did not know BJ was that bred back to peewee. However, the female I recall close in Zip/s Jake hound, was directly from a cross between Spring Creek Rock & Donhoney/s Cadillac. Believe, she was Jake/s grandmother & think someone told me it was a female Elmer had ordered to use in his breeding program. So Jake had more finlely river in him than I knew about.
David will always be tied to our hounds that will haunt him forever, for his trip to Mac McCallister home to get Mckenzie River Bango. Al Want to say, don/t pay attention to anything I type in capitol letters, most time that just means I forgot to hit the cap button again & tired of correcting mistakes!

[catdog360]

Tim said something that I have been telling dad for years but he doesn't see it the way I do.
Tim said we have bred the running dog out of our walkers.

Now all of our tree dogs came from fox hounds, but our walkers are the closest to them.
And by breed the fox hound out I mean that when dad explains his hounds from the 60 & 70 s the sound more like the fox hounds today.

Dad's walkers came and still defend from Ray Mears

Does any other old timers see it this way.

Mic O'Brien

[slowandeasy]

Quote Nolte : Umm, I don't think there are many tree dogs that are good locators. Most of them tree, but they are far from a locator.


One thing about Ole Nolte he'll sure tell ya where the bear chits in the buckwheat!!!! Good to hear ya Nolte. For the confused they will tree but the trees are slicker than a old mans waxed bald head.


Mic,

To many people living in the way, way distant past. When you hear people talk about Spring Creek Rock, Johnsons Banjo, Hardtime Speck, Dickeys Ole Blue Boy II, ( English Blue tick, don't want you blue guys to get excited ) Houses Tom Tom, Some of the Lipper dogs Some of the Loose Bruce dogs. ect. ect. We are talking dogs that were real close to Running dog blood. We ARE ALSO TALKING ANTIQUES more so than me and I've hunted with a lot of them. And a lot say I HAVE, I HAVE, AND I HAVE MAINTAINED, AND MAINTAINED. And reality is they have an empty sack period. How many Finney Clays or Willett Randals do we know? I don't know any in the tree dog world Hence the reason for empty sacks. The only one I know of that is trying to make the correction that needs to be made ( and way ahead of everyone might I add ) is Mike Kemp. I am sure others are making an honest effort. But he was way ahead in seeing the deficiency in the tree dogs. Long rant to the question do any other old timers see it that way. Yes I believe they do. The ones still living the glory days aren't contributing anything but stories. And sad, but for the rest most of them don't have the time nor money to get it changed in the breeding pen.



Take care, Willie

[catdog360]

Geez Willie, had to shake my head twice and reread it twice. But I think I see what you are saying. I have felt for many years we are getting away from the running dog traits. The way that dad says his hounds were in the 70 s sounds just like the running dogs of today.
I believe that there are tree dog breeders today that still posses these traits but it was easier for me to go back to the running dog and breed these traits back in then to travel all over the place hunting with different breeders to see if they still kept these characteristics that dad said they used to have.

Mic O'Brien

[merlo_105]

I also hear them story's. Only two Walkers stand out to me that seemed to be more old blood closer to the running dog style and both of them were Dotson dogs I never got to hunt with them in there prime but at a old age both dogs could get it done with little effort it seemed. Just really well rounded dogs. Talked with Hubert about the dogs and there breeding and all he had to say was it was some old stuff they had that clicked. A guy I deal with has a few young pup's that I believe are full Walker that he is speaking very hi of right now. I know he only deals with the running cross dogs so for him to have good words to say about these Walkers and he's wanting to finish them out say's a lot to me. So I would like to think you can still find good fruit a ways a way from the Orchard.

[grouse]

https://archive.org/details/americanfoxhound00trig , here's some reading on the foxhound you may find interesting .

[mike martell]

So I would like to think you can still find good fruit a ways a way from the Orchard.

One huge contributing factor with our hounds lies within each of our States banning all or a portion of our hunting and a loss of our hunting grounds...Good Hounds are like race horses, you can't put them on the race track in peak condition and then lock them up for months at a time and have expectations of winning the Triple Crown! I think we squeeze more out of our dogs now than ever.

Mike

[Trueblue]

Quote Nolte : Umm, I don't think there are many tree dogs that are good locators. Most of them tree, but they are far from a locator.


One thing about Ole Nolte he'll sure tell ya where the bear chits in the buckwheat!!!! Good to hear ya Nolte. For the confused they will tree but the trees are slicker than a old mans waxed bald head.




The only one I know of that is trying to make the correction that needs to be made ( and way ahead of everyone might I add ) is Mike Kemp. I am sure others are making an honest effort. But he was way ahead in seeing the deficiency in the tree dogs.

Would you care to elaborate on these comments. What were the deficiencies that Mr. Kemp was having problems with ? You seem to indicate that slick treeing may have been one of his problems. Was Mike having lots of slick trees. I guess if I was having this problem the quickest way out of it would be to go get me some dogs that don't tree. That would damn sure solve my problem and quick.

[Dads dogboy]

Ah Grouse.....you are rarely Heard from, but when you are it is always with a True gem.

Col. Triggs Book....the 2nd Paragraph of the Preface recognizes and states much more clearly than I do the Regional differences in pursuing Game. The last Paragraph of page 11 discusses succinctly the Traits that define a Hound of the Running Hound Breeds.

Now just like with the Treebred Hounds of all Breeds, COMPETITIONS have caused Running Hounds to Mutate from the things Col. Trigg speaks to. Within some Lines (Pen Dogs) other Skills than those valued in producing "Game Catchers" are valued more highly. Speed & Drive is of paramount importance, to the detriment of Traits such as "Cold Nose", Trail, and Hunt. Not that these Pen Dogs may not have these skills, it is that these skills are not valued and Bred for as they would be in "Game Catching" Hounds.

Several times within the pages of his Book Col.Trigg addresses the "Treeing" abilities and the necessity of this in bringing a successful ending to a Chase. Whether up a Tree or in a Hole, Hounds of his era were expected to LOCATE the Game and tell the Boss where it is hiding. On the East Coast a Hound marking a Fox or Bobcat gone to Ground is said to be "Treeing".

A Great thread! Thanks to all who contribute to it.....David you are a RARE Gift to all of Us!

[al baldwin]

So I would like to think you can still find good fruit a ways a way from the Orchard.

One huge contributing factor with our hounds lies within each of our States banning all or a portion of our hunting and a loss of our hunting grounds...Good Hounds are like race horses, you can't put them on the race track in peak condition and then lock them up for months at a time and have expectations of winning the Triple Crown! I think we squeeze more out of our dogs now than ever.

Mike

Mike you are so correct, average hunter is going to have a hard time harvesting enough game to make a tree hound out of true running dog stock here. You can get young dogs treeing by pulling game up and down a tree, but that does not mean ( quoting Johnnie Young ) when taken to the woods they can locate a biscuit in a large tree. Al

[al baldwin]

So I would like to think you can still find good fruit a ways a way from the Orchard.

One huge contributing factor with our hounds lies within each of our States banning all or a portion of our hunting and a loss of our hunting grounds...Good Hounds are like race horses, you can't put them on the race track in peak condition and then lock them up for months at a time and have expectations of winning the Triple Crown! I think we squeeze more out of our dogs now than ever.

Mike

Mike you are so correct, average hunter is going to have a hard time harvesting enough game to make a tree hound out of true running dog stock here. You can get young dogs treeing by pulling game up and down a tree, but that does not mean ( quoting Johnnie Young ) when taken to the woods they can locate anything in a tree, well maybe a biscuit. Think that the way he described it to me at a treeing contest once years ago. Al

Willie how many Mike Kemp dogs have you trained or hunted with??? Mr Kemp I have not hunted with a single dog of your breeding so am not passing any judgment, just want to know what Willie bases his opinion on. Al

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Al, there is very little Tree "Training" done in/with the Purebred Running Hounds of which ever Breed, Trigg, Hudspeth, Running Walker, etc. It seems that they come to this Treeing "Naturally" using their Nose to "WIND" where the Game has gone.

Now while we and the East Coast Houndsmen do not have the 200 foot tall Fur, Spruce and Cedars you all have, neither do we have the squatty Mesquites of South Texas. We have Oak, and Gums to the 100 foot height and Pines up in the 120-50 foot in height range. In Florida we have Palms up to the 80+ foot height, and I have seen a little Running Walker from VA and several Clay Hounds Tree the hell out of a Big Tom up in the Crown of one of the tallest Palms Dad or I had ever seen.

Just what we have seen in areas we have been!