Runnin dogs???

[dwalton]

A lot of good coming from this post; a lot I hope people are thinking about. David I think all of us wish we could articulate as well as you do, be accepting of everyone and as you [ none judgmental].Cary, Willie,Grouse, Mike and many others with years of wisdom. We need and hunt different dogs for different areas for sure. I think the dogs are totally different today than they were when the treeing dog registrations first came about. As willie and others have said you can not breed for one trait be treeing or drive or hot nose and keep a complete hunting dog going. I have a red dog here that is not a redbone that many people including bench judges have said would win. To me he is not the body type that works for me, he is to leggy for this heavy brush and being high flank, tight waisted he can not eat enough to be hunted day after day with out feeding three or more times in a day. I see so many dogs bred that have poor conformation, off barking .... and to tree happy. I will bred to a light tree dog before I breed to a tree happy dog. Most of the traits that work for me are in the old style running dogs, cold nose good conformation and great ability on moving a track. Treeing is the problem and where one goes for the treeing is the hardest part to add in. Just my opinion, I do not mean to step on toes which seem to come pretty easy for me. Each to their own and I am always looking for a better dog that works for me. Dewey

[mike martell]

Mr. Al, there is very little Tree "Training" done in/with the Purebred Running Hounds of which ever Breed, Trigg, Hudspeth, Running Walker, etc. It seems that they come to this Treeing "Naturally" using their Nose to "WIND" where the Game has gone.

Now while we and the East Coast Houndsmen do not have the 200 foot tall Fur, Spruce and Cedars you all have, neither do we have the squatty Mesquites of South Texas. We have Oak, and Gums to the 100 foot height and Pines up in the 120-50 foot in height range. In Florida we have Palms up to the 80+ foot height, and I have seen a little Running Walker from VA and several Clay Hounds Tree the hell out of a Big Tom up in the Crown of one of the tallest Palms Dad or I had ever seen.

Just what we have seen in areas we have been!

C John....With all due respect!

Some valid points made about the over all origin of the running dogs. I guess it boils down to your location and intended purpose of the running dog...In your case, you/ Dad, didn't want or need locating tree dogs if I understand the swamps, snakes to mention a few issues? Here we have the tall timber and need the over all ability to make the cat hunting complete...I call sitting in a truck listening to a fine pack of dogs running a cat just that, running, if you don't walk in a see a cat sitting in a tree or one dead on the ground it is just running....I don't hunt for these reasons nor do I think any other West coast cat hunters do either. I guess your bobcat hunting by my definition more resembles our desert coyote hunting with running dogs? So if what I see and read is correct about the lack of treeing in the running dogs, that appears more times than not right here on these threads, where did and how did that happen along the line?....I suspect if the dog was an excellent locator, it probably also trees fairly well....I guess I just got lost when the statement was made about how well the running dogs tree naturally?

Mike

[slowandeasy]

TBlue,

Elaboration : Probably started with Arrow.

1) Reveled lack of bottom. ( Toughness )

2) Others getting blown out of races.

3) Don't think he had a slick treeing problem. ( But sure he didn't have his head in the sand about it existing.)


Now, could you elaborate as to why? When you consistently say you have all these qualities others are trying to improve on. Which is very commendable. Why would you have such an interest in the qualities that could be gained from the running dog. I would simply be happy in my own skin. But do you have doubts? Or do you simply use these opportunities as a platform to pat your self on the back?




Al,


I have not fed one kernel of feed, nor trained one Kemp hound. But have watched his dedication from when he started advertising Arrow. Explaining to people what he was trying to do. When I believe even he was uncertain at the time how it would turn out. But he stayed persistent and stayed the course. And in talking to people I respect that are running them. ( Mark being one of them. ) I believe Mike is reaping the fruits of hard work. Note I said people I respect. Respect is earned not campaigned for on the Internet.

Training or feeding a particular strain of dogs has nothing to do with the research of such. But what does have much to do while looking for a particular strain. That one could have reasonable success in different parts of the country. Is the amount of time spent turning such hounds loose in different areas. You seem to be very opinionated. Would you mind telling us how many times you have dropped the tailgate more than 150 miles from where you drink coffee in the morning.


Take care, Willie

[al baldwin]

C John am not saying all running dogs will not tree, just trying to point out with short harvest seasons here & running cat only, tough to get a true locating tree dog from the running stock. I think it/s very hard to get folks to realize if someone had a stock of running dog that excelled and became a complete balanced I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TOOT THIER HORN. I know that even Dewey admits hard to find a majority who do so.
My statement about getting young dogs to bark at a tree where game is being pulled up & down was trying to alert young hunters not to assume you are buying a for sure locating tree dog, when taken to the woods.
If one can still work those on bear (some can here with permits ) chances go way up of making a tree dog. Al

[dwalton]

Mike: Tom and I have talked about treeing in hounds and we both think about the same. For a good locating dog on bobcats it takes a good track dog that knows when the track ends, will not keep on trying to trail a track re hash or back track. The traits we like in running or some running dogs is there tracking ability. Most know when the track ends. The running dogs or part running dog that I have seen tree don't say a lot, they just set back and treeing not barking every breath which does not fit what some people expect from a tree dog and most don't start treeing until they know where the game has gone. I have read on here that people expect dogs to open and tree by 12 months some even 12 weeks on a drag. My dogs have never ran a drag and most don't tree until 18 to 24 months old. We all may have different expectation as to what a tree dog is mine work for me. Willie Mikes does a great job breeding his dogs and he brought some really good studs from Northern California from hunters that had been breeding these dogs for 40 years. There was a hole lot of breeding and culling before Mike got them. They have 1\2 to 5\8 running dogs that tree and locate good. Mike does a great job starting them and is a good trainer that knows a good but like all good dogs there was someone before that did a lot of work. Dewey

[mike martell]

My post was intended for my own self gain, not to put any one down or the dogs behind the men......I'm not new to hounds, however, I am new to the running dog integrated into the lines we use and have only experimented over the last five years....This makes me no expert...I have been stuck on tree hounds and for a reason of ignorance or simply being hard headed...I happen to be struck by the added enhanced value of extra speed and endurance within the running dogs....Why switch? I guess like years past when a guy told me a bear is not fast and can only run so far, never seen the evolution of our game...Any single person that thinks cats stay on the ground for ten or twenty minutes hasn't hunted where I hunt and run some of our bobcats, sure I catch plenty like described, I'm not interested in the ones I catch, I'm interested in the ones I miss.... I just strive to step up my game to close the deal on those I miss and feel the only way is to incorporate something besides the full hound...I make the statements with the full intent of an open invitation at any time for some one to show me how to catch these cats in grand style that I miss....

Thanks for the input!

Mike

[al baldwin]

Willie again, never forming any opinion on the dogs bred by Mr. Kemp. I do not drink coffee, do not travel far from home to hunt, do not write on the internet to gain fame, fact took encouragement from local younger hunter to get me posting, he felt I would get more respect than he at explaining why we don/t catch as many cats here as the running dog hunters from the south east. Boy was he incorrect! To say that I am opinionated by some one like you is like the kettle calling the kettle black. You always seem to know just what is needed to catch game here, ( from nice to elephants ) not once have I stated I knew anything about what you need in Arizonia. I would stop posting but get encourage from others often to continue, that fell someone needs to offer other opinions. Willie you have a nice day and don/t take anything to personal, if you ever make it out will buy you a cup of coffee, while I enjoy a decaffeinated pepsi. Heck we might ever turn an old sorry blue dog lose, even tho you will see a sign at the gate, Saying WALKER FLATS AL

[Trueblue]

TBlue,



Now, could you elaborate as to why? When you consistently say you have all these qualities others are trying to improve on. Which is very commendable. Why would you have such an interest in the qualities that could be gained from the running dog. I would simply be happy in my own skin. But do you have doubts? Or do you simply use these opportunities as a platform to pat your self on the back?

I have no idea what you are talking about and I don't think you do either.

[david]

Mikes [Mike Kemp] does a great job breeding his dogs and he brought some really good studs from Northern California from hunters that had been breeding these dogs for 40 years. There was a hole lot of breeding and culling before Mike got them. They have 1\2 to 5\8 running dogs that tree and locate good. Mike does a great job starting them and is a good trainer that knows a good but like all good dogs there was someone before that did a lot of work. Dewey

Some one finally said it. Thank you. I dont know Mike Kemp, and I am sure I would really like him if I did. But I know where his stock came from, California is full of them, and it has always bugged me that people think these dogs came from Mike Kemp. Did Al Gore really invent the internet? Evidently people think so. I dont know if Mike is this way at all, maybe it is all our fault, but it has always really bothered me when some one takes the work of others and puts their name on it and mass-markets it. I am sure Mike gives credit where credit is due. We should honor him and those who bred these dogs up by doing the same.

[mike martell]

[quote="dwalton"]Mike: Tom and I have talked about treeing in hounds and we both think about the same. For a good locating dog on bobcats it takes a good track dog that knows when the track ends, will not keep on trying to trail a track re hash or back track. The traits we like in running or some running dogs is there tracking ability.

Dewey
You just nailed the reason why I look to the running dog for my answers and the bigger picture....I like a dog wanting to keep going to the end of the line, something not found in most hound lines or traits....I get sick and tired of a hound pulling up treed when the cat escaped and will not tolerate that for long. So the problems begin to find the correct formula to get the intended results. True competitive desire drives me to change and nothing more...I was sold on plotts until the right walkers come along and now I see a need to evolve one more time....

I thank all for their contributions in this thread and please don't take anything stated out of context!

[coastrangecathunting]

First off I would like to say I think running dogs or running dog crosses are only needed or preferred in curtain areas around the country for CATS. I think anyone who hunts snow will do just fine with a tree bred dog , be it blue or pink. Second I think to really see exactly what your dog brings to the table u need to take it out and run a couple cats by its self. U might find out that that running dog u thought wouldn't locate actually will given the time to figure it out. Or u might find out the dog u thought was locating was actually just tree barking because some other dog did first. They might just turn around and come back. I have found out the hard way that just because a dog is running dog it would come with all the desired traits . Not barking behind, fast, ect. There is good and bad in all breeds . once in awhile u will get lucky and make the right cross but don't think u are just going to cross a running dog with a treeing dog and have success . u might but u might not. Always remember what u think is a cat dog and what someone else thinks is a cat dog could be way different.

jc

[dwalton]

JC: I think you are 100% right in what you said. I tried years ago dogs crossed with treeing walkers with both full Triggs and full July's. Most would not tree on bobcat, bear and lion yes even though the running dogs did tree. Guys they have been doing this in California for 40 years. Why reinvent the wheel. There are running dog crosses that are great tree dogs and great producers. Somebody finally is producing these dogs for sale. Dewey

[twist]

Oconee, there are full tree hound (certain strains) that make bobcat catching look just as easy as what some say crossed with running dogs. Just because a dog has running blood in it doesn make it a bobcat catcher. It has to be the right recipe just like any other strain or cross. There are full breed tree dogs that can and will run with any running dog cross and anyone that says different has not experienced it or has not looked hard enough. I am by no meens knocking the running dog crosses just saying they are not the only hound out there that catches consistantly. I belive catdog360 would back my statements. Andy

[al baldwin]

I sold a couple cat dogs to young hunter & his Dad a few years ago, recall the Dad telling me he for years had owned dogs the same breeding as Arrow. Fact he owned a littermate brother to Arrow that died at his kennel. Stated those were the best fox, bear & cat dog he had ever known of, believe he stated they were trigs that ran hard & treed well. He had moved up from California. If I recall correct, he told me an older hunter by the name of George Yurney was the man behind those dogs. Sure I murdered the spelling of George/s last name.
They must be good a younger hunter told me a story about a hunter in this area trying to sell him a six month old dog for $ 2500, SUPPOSLEY, that hunter was in partners on that young Kemp hound. The deal was tho, they did not want very many of those dogs getting out in the area, because if that happened there wound not be any cats left to hunt .
Again no judgment on Mr. Kemps dogs. Al

[dwalton]

It is not the speed of a dog that makes it a bobcat dog for me. It is not a running dog or a tree dog it is a dog that is smart, moves a cold track at a run, does not bark off track, shuts up on a lose, opens when it is found, honors the dog that finds it, runs for the lead, does not back trail,has the conformation to run all day, day after day, not run down a road barking when a cat hits the road, makes the turn when it leaves, stays tight on a track but will get out and look for a lose, easy to train not hard headed and trees enough for me to find them staying for hours even over night at a tree. A lot of this can be taught to the right dog, some can be genetics. What I look for in a young dog is not what most people look for. Not saying it is right or wrong just what I like no matter what the color or bred is. I have tried a lot of dogs of all blood lines, most won't work for me. I think there are some very good bobcat dogs north of me that I would like to try. Just because a dog catches bobcats don't make it a bobcat dog, not for me anyway. I am always looking for a better dog and have seen no perfect ones. For it has to be a straight bobcat dog to be a bobcat dog. Track stile makes a fast dog on a jump or a cold trail. If it just took speed we could use greyhounds. If just took cold trailing we could use blood hounds, if it took just grit we could use terriers but we don't. Dewey