DRy ground training.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

All my cat hunting is done with snow, or some snow. My season runs from sept to end of april. I would like everyones ideas on how to start my dogs on dry ground. I have trained my dogs by tracking cougar on a leash until we get close then instinct takes over and I let the dogs go. Seems to work . Dry ground I wouldn't know where to start.

[Ike]

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[mike martell]

hey my first question is are you from the same chilcotin that i'm thinking ?because if you are that would put you west of williams lake across the frazier river in b.c. canada.been there hunted that not much for roads. let me know the area first than tailor fit a game plan from there.

[Mike Leonard]

As the others have stated there is no great mystery to starting to work you lion dogs on dry ground you just have to be willing to allow the dogs to do the bulk of the work.

Let me explain what I mean by this. In track hunting, where you go look for a track, and then line the track out for your dogs and possibly even lead them down it a ways before you cut them loose you eleviate the potential for them starting on off game, starting the track the wrong way, or trying to go out on a track that is too old for them to carry.This is even tru when they are cut loose from a vehicle if you have found the track, determined what made the track and the direction of it's travel.

Now then you are on bare ground and if you do not first find a track say in a trail or roadway you must allow your dog or dogs to free cast and discover a line of travel for themselves. So you have the potential for off game, striking a track and running it backwards and things like that. so here is where you must first get a handle on your dogs who are loose free cast hunting. And this starts in a controlled envoirment if possible and using an e- collar to keep them fairly close so you can tell what is going on. I have my dogs working close to me and seldom over 100 yards unless I send them across a big canyon to check things out. Use mild stimulation and even the noise only later to keep them in. I use a whistle to turn my dogs back rather than yelling. Just a short blast after they relate it to the e-collar and they will turn and come in or stop. I do not let too many dogs get out in front. So my strike dog or maybe two strike dogs are out and the others are kept back using the same contrtols. some people like to neck together their extra dogs I do not because I have seen too many occasions where things blew up and they got away necked up and this spells disaster. You will then need to know what your dogs are striking. If you have them good and straight on snow you will probably have little difficulty with trash, but when they do strike you need to get to them as quick as possible and make sure it is the critter you want and that they are going forward on the track before you fall in with them and go on down the line. In bare ground hunting you hunt right along with your dogs and many times you may have to use your eyes or reasoning to help them thru a bad place or a lose and get it going again. Actually this is a lot of fun and your dogs will start to honor you just like a trusted pack mate. If you must hiss them or cluck them on a track you can start by using small bits of cut up hot dogs hidden in the lawn or in shallow dirt to start them putting their nose where you point. After they figure this game out and you get them to a track a time or two they will run over and smell where you point if you are honest with them. I usually don't make a big issue out of hissing them on a track I let them come over by it and see if they show any indication of it before I really point it out to them. Too much hissing will cause an over eager dog to at times go off and strike a ghost track ( meaning noithing is really there) or an off game track because he want to run somthing for you.

It's a game of patience and time much like the dog working out a cold trail, this game of bare ground hunting. but the rewards are very meaningful when it all comes together.


So many folks these days are not really lion hunters they are track hunters if you stop and think about it. Sure you can end up with a lion in the tree and that is the intent, but when you are running all over hunting a track and your dogs are waiting to be poked down the track when you find it. bouncing around in a dog box they don't learn a heck of a lot about looking for a lion, because the boss does that.


Have fun and enjoy the nice weather

[Ike]

,,,

[Mike Leonard]

Ike, that is an excellent analogy, and it sure ain't easy very often.

Another interesting point and so true is how dogs will lock onto an old tom track and just grind and grind on that thing and even at times when they cross right over a fresher female track they stayon the old tom tracks.

Why? Well I am not sure other than tom scent is much stronger, lays longer and just seems to have more allure then the light airy scent of a female lion. some of them little young females don't have a heck of a lot more scent to them than a dang bobcat and they can be the $hits to catch at times even when they have been jumped. Lord when they get a lesson or two they can really make you cuss.

I had one little female out real close to my house for about 4 years. she did a bunch of hound training and I only got her treed a few times and she was like a ghost running thru those bluffs and masn could she drive you nuts. She would hit a road and run down it, turn around and run back up it, jump off on a rock go 100 yards, cross the road again. Why it would make you dizzy, some hounds would be meeting othwer hounds coming back the other way, but it sure did make for some excitment and fired them young dogs up. Well of all the crazy things to happen to a female like this that was just about impossible for a real good hound to stay up with especially on bare ground. Some green first year hound hunters went out on a fresh snow and of all days for her to do it she ran across the road in front of their truck. They didn't even get a dog out till later they just ran out there and shot her as she went thru the rocks. I got the whole story later, but I had already figured it out as I followed their tracks on my horse where they drove around and carried her out. They didn't have to drag for sure because she wouldn't have weighed over 75 pounds, but she is long gone now, and for some reason another lion has never really moved into her old area. I think because they are building so many houses out there now and the mountain bikers are all over they just don't care for that spot much like they use to.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Thanks for all the great info. Working with the hounds is great . I think I have track hunting done pretty good , even then you always learn something everytime you go out. Dryland hunting seems like the next step, and you guys have given me great info. So far it seems to make sense. I'm Lucky as I am one of 2 houndsmen inabout 2000 square miles the other guy guides with me in the winter. I should be able to round up a few tracks for the hounds as there is a good # of cats around and little pressure. Trusting your hounds seems like the part of the equation and being willing to let them do what their bred for.I've started dragging a frozen cougar hide around through the hills then walking the hounds over the track to watch the dogs reactions, and which dog works the track the quickest and most effiently. When they tree they don't seem to get overly excited. I wonder if this might bore them after a while. thanks guys

[mike martell]

DOUG HAVING HUNTED YOUR GUIDE AREA FOR THE SAME FOLKS AS YOU . THIS THING ABOUT BARE GROUND WOULD BE DANGEROUS. ANY DIRECTION YOU GO, YOU CAN BE IN TROUBLE IN A HEART BEAT JUST ASK ELI ABOUT SOME OF THOSE BIG CATS HEADING UP POTATO MTN. OR BACK IN TOWARDS HORN PEAK.I AND BERNIE SPENT MANY MILES WALKING AFTER DOGS, YES THE ROYAL FAMILY WAS THERE IN 03 ,I WOULD BLAZE A TRAIL FROM SKINNER MEADOW BACK TOWARDS CHOELQUOIT LAKE AS I REMEMBER AN AREA THAT I WALKED THAT HAD MANY NICE CATS . THIS WOULD BE A GOOD SUMMER PROJECT. THE GUY AT THE END OF THE LANE UP SKINNER SEEMED COOL. PROBABLY WOULD NOT MIND AT ALL. GIVE YOU SOME MORE OPTIONS . KEEP IN MIND THE DEER. STAY WITH THE DEER . WHATS UP WITH SNOWMOBILING AFTER 10 A.M. ?SPEAKING OF SNOWMOBILES ASK ELI OR ERIC ABOUT ERICS CRASH ON HIS SLED RIGHT IN FRONT OF OLD ARCH DUKE!!!ERIC WAS PROBABLY TRYING TO FORGET, DOES ELI HAVE HIS BOY SHOOTING A GUN YET? RUDOLPH DO BETTER ON THE CAT THAN HE DID A MULIE?(POOR SHOT) PROBABLY USED HIS BOW?WHEN YOU GET SET UP I WOULD LIKE TO COME UP AND HUNT WITH YOU. MAYBE BRING THE OLD SIDE KICK BERNIE ALONG AS HE AND LESTER DORSEY ROAMED THE CHILCOTIN MANY MOONS AGO. THE WISCONSIN CLIENT CALLED ME THIS WINTER. HE TOOK A CAT UP THE LANE AT HATCH'S OLD PLACE ANOTHER GOOD LION CROSSING AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW. DOUG AGAIN YOU ARE THE LUCKIEST PERSON ON THE PLANET TO LIVE WHERE YOU DO. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU GET TO ROCKING , I WILL HELP YOU BOOK SOME LION HUNTERS OUT WEST. KEEP IN TOUCH MIKE.

[horshur]

This year we actually did catch without a snow track...a first for me and my dog though I have been trying to keep quiet about a track I have found and come back to it from another direction so the dogs work into it and strike off on there own. I must admit I have not been real effective at breaking my dogs off deer and that presents a big problem for me cause I can't really trust them!

[mike martell]

doug, wow i was caught up thinking how close i came to being where you are now, if eli would have been a dedicated dog man i would have stayed there but he is not,i thought if eric sold out i would be out, any how heres the scoop from my perspective , timing is everything my friend. i just found out howard prosser had passed away. you probably knew him or of him a great man and a good guide. howard lived on the four mile at anahim when i first met him through elis in laws. i'm guessing now eli has pulled into full time guide working for dave altheer. he owns lehman creek outfitters.since i was there eli married punky dorsey. he now is a cattle man i think his days of guiding for pop is over. he would be the natural replacement for howard .not that howard could be replaced. i bet eli don't get to play much at tatla lake anymore. eli's father in law is roger he too guides for dave. daves area is the place that roger and wanda own in anahim.i looked at the guide area on the horn peak road and passed it over, don't know if you could grab that up as well. man i would take a good hard look at the lynx cat there. everyday on the road over to chilko i found 5to6 lynx tracks daily . this road snows out quick but, if you got good at catching them i would get ahold of dave altheer he lives in quesnell.i'm sure he would sign your guide lic. than i would run that anahim lake country at rogers place. i used to see lynx jump the road on a regular basis.howard trapped there back in the 90's. no body hunts dogs there. that area is flat pole patch country. that was my dream . i hope you can live out my dream. i will give you all the direction needed to put this together if you are interested, also i dont believe the bracewells guide cats either . i would suck up to these people do what it takes. also stop at eric's i left a dog sled there. pull behind a snowmobile type would work well for your operation if it aint there its at the three circle ranch.man i can't believe i found out about you. small world .i can see how this has played into your hands, you know douglas schuk took the largest lion ever killed right there.i have lived a good life traveling around the country hunting. your area well it is the best there is bar none. if you do the lynx thing stop by and visit bart lancaster on your way to williams lake .he catches alot of lynx .i dont have no problem repeating myself you are a lucky guy!!! if you could swing it i would offer to buy out eric.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Heh Mike , the last 2 years has been rough lynx hunting as the snow was deep and bottomless. I had a really good lynx dog ,a real nice fast walker hound but sadly she was killed by a big tom 3 years ago. As far as the area , you know it well. It must give you good memories. I have a trail from skinner meadow to chilquoet and your right the big kiittys cross tha t area often. I am in the process of working a deal with Bracewells that helps out on the on call hunts. I don't see Eli often but punky maybe out today to shoe some horses. I'll keep intouch and maybe I will call you up to come out and give me a hand if things get busy this winter. My days of hunting with Shcuk are over .I can't deal with a guy who is so negative. If he is on the hunt he does not want my dogs along. He's been at it so long you can't argue with him.Its good for me that he's hard to get along with ,because the outfitters won't work with him. there is a guy in Anihamlake named Paul Laurie who has been hunting Lynx hard taking about 15 cats a year for hunters.good point about drylanding The wolf situation has made me more then nervous about letting the dogs go on a not so hot track. 2 guys out at 100 mile lost all their dogs to wolves this year. Wiped out the whole pack. If you want give me a call I'll pm you my #

[mike martell]

hey, doug i would love for you to get me your phone number. it don't matter how long you been houndin. i believe if you are thru learning you are thru. too bad about schuck but you dont need attitude. hunting is supposed to be fun . besides you can'tbuild a pack of dogs leaving them at home .i would take my lumps. that is the reason i built my own pack up. so i didn't have to deal with no one.yeah i would help you run your overflow clients .i could promote from this end as well as i know what is there ,if you see punky tell her hi. also tell her bernie is well he had a heart attack earlier this year but is going strong for 80 . he hunted with punkys granddad lester dorsey in the 60's .sucks about the lynx as this is the premier deal i know you snow out quickly there, what i was thinking was that down in anahim sometimes when you are waist deep at tatla you have a lighter dose at anahim.if the guy is taking 15 a year that area won't support that for long. doug i'm leaving town for a few days but i will try and hook up with you when i return. adios my friend.

[Ike]

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[Spokerider]

Great thread you guys

I too hunt my dogs on foot and am wanting to try dry ground lion hunting.

Chilcoltin Hillbilly, you're a step ahead of me with your dogs, having walked them in on lion tracks in the snow and taught them the game you want them to run. My pups have not had that training yet......never did find a hot enough lion track this last winter to walk them in on.
Where I live [ pacific northwest ] we can go a long time without snow, and when it does snow, the snow conditions are poor for hunting at best......melt / freeze etc...

Mike Leonard,
Your hunting style and dog handling experience is intriguing.....

." so here is where you must first get a handle on your dogs who are loose free cast hunting. And this starts in a controlled envoirment if possible and using an e- collar to keep them fairly close so you can tell what is going on. I have my dogs working close to me and seldom over 100 yards unless I send them across a big canyon to check things out. Use mild stimulation and even the noise only later to keep them in. I use a whistle to turn my dogs back rather than yelling. Just a short blast after they relate it to the e-collar and they will turn and come in or stop. I do not let too many dogs get out in front. "


Doing a lot of hike-hunting, I too want my dogs working in close. I don't want them ranging out into tomorrow if possible, I want them in closer and obeying my commands. For one reason, they're not trash broke, so I want to know what they're running and striking on, and if they're a mile away, I would have no idea what they were up to... Secondly, the terrain here is steep, criss-crossed with streams / rivers, and the vegitation is very thick and difficult to hike through. A dog only has to be a hundred yards away in some places and it's already out of my hearing. They both have bells on the collars. When I want them to come back and check-in with me, I call them with the tritronics "tone" and give a reward when they do come back. If they don't respond to the tone, I'll try hitting the button a time or two again until I'm sure the dogs heard it and just ignoring it, then at that point the dog gets a correction shock.

You seem to have it nailed.

Question; at which point do you turn 'em loose and let them track what they've struck on? Once on a track that you want them to run, do you still keep calling them back [ if so, by which technique ] so you can keep-up on foot, or, do they get to run the race and you break out the telemetry?

Also, whats "cluck" mean? To just point your finger to a spot on the ground and ask the dog to work the spot with it's nose? I can get my dogs to work an area like this, but, one pup has a lot of sawdust in his blood, and will start running a ghost track just cause he thinks I want him too!

For this summer, I'm going to keep hiking with the dogs, tune them up on deer, bear, elk, beaver and what ever other trash I don't want them running, and eventually, we're going to cut a cat track / kill and get them on lion.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

If you don't get em on a cat this summer take the first snow day of the winter. In fact go the next day. in 24 hrs cats will make a lot of tracks. Find a fresh track , follow it with the dogs, this could go for a few miles. Your dogs will know what your following and if you pay attention to your dogs they will let the you know when your close. Let em go. I found its best to let em go on a younger cat , the old cats can teach your dogs a lesson in a hurry. Maybe take a trip to the interior for a week in December.