getting tired of finding dead lions

[Chris Todd]

I have found two dead lions in the last couple months. Both were obviously treed then killed,and left. One was a kitten about 6-months old,and the other a female around two years of age. I don't have a problem with lions being killed. Of course a 6-month old kitten being killed for any reason is way beyond anything sporting. I have treed and left in the tree several lions in this area. These lions were killed in the same area. So I have looked the other way on some of this kind of crap. But I am not leaving lions in the tree so some idiots can muck them and leave them. I hunt pretty much every mountain range within 50miles of Kingman AZ. I have been in touch with the azgfd. And am more than willing to get them involved if I find anymore lions that have been left to waste. I don't like being in this position. But I am not the one breaking the law here. News flash to the idiots that are doing this. You are breaking the law.

[pegleg]

Report it. And take pictures to give the warden. I'm sure you know all the different shit that has gone on over the years. Its not going to hurt anyone leaving kittens in the tree..

[chiller]

i second that, take pictures and turn them in there is no reason for that kind of sh**.... what a shame.

[FullCryHounds]

A bullet from one of the dead lions will be your best chance of catching them. License plate numbers, time and date of those you find hunting in the area. If there is anything taken from the carcass like claws or skull then of coarse a DNA sample can also help solve the case.

[Mike Leonard]

Chris,

This is certainly not unique and we are finding some of the same things in our area. I must state emphatically that I am not at all against trapping and some of the greatest outdoorsmen I have ever know have been trappers. But several of the carcasses we have found have abviously been trapped and then shot and discarded. On state and BLM land trapped lions are to be released and local wildlife enforcement is to be notified. Now I know releasing a mad lion is not easy unless you know what you are doing but with a little practice and the right tool it is fairly simple. A lot of trappers however know that some lions have the nasty habit of following a set line and eating fox, and bobcats out of the traps so eliminating them complelty is a better solution but it is unlawful.

Another group that I have observed is the newbee lion hunters who just can"t leave a lion in the tree and feel the only way to make real lion dogs is to jump and re-jump the lion until it is exausted to the point it will die from stress and respitory failure or it will be killed by the dogs on the ground. I have a real issue with this and I can tell you that several of these groups are under intense investigation at this time.

With the recent terrible case with the convicted Colorado Outfitter and his daughters the public eye is very much on the lion hunters and a lot of money from special interest groups is being pumped into private investigators as well as Federal authorities. Be very careful who you take hunting with you and don't let anybody set you up. I was recently contacted by one of these investigators who tried to befriend me and asked to hunt with me. Before lunch was over I knew this person was on a mission. I told him flat out it seems you know more about me than I know myself so let's get the cards out on the table and see what you want to know.

He said well you are suppose to be a straight huinter but you know a lot of folks and I was hoping you could help me bust some illegal hunters. I said you got the wrong man mister I hunt by myself and I don't target ot point finger i just mind my own business and I think you would do well yo do the same. He left and that was that but I found out this guy and others like him roam all over the western states and have a lot of money behing them and their goal is to eliminate lion hunting with hounds completly.

So please follow the law and don't mess it up so your kids and grandkids can possibly get to enjoy a lion hunt in years to come.

[Chris Todd]

Mike, It is illegal in Az to use leg hold traps on public land. And I have hunted this area enough to know that there is no one running traps in the area. I do try my best to mind my own business. And after almost 40-years of lion hunting I have seen plenty of the illegal stuff going on. And heard of alot more. I guess I have just gotten real tired of this kind of crap. I talk to lion hunters all the time who hunt for days and can't find a fresh track. This kind of crap is the reason why.

[mike martell]

I know this is Arizona, but it happens all over...Not to make light of a bad situation but here in Oregon we have several paid houndsmen who hunt for ODFW...Several on this board....Here in Oregon our Game Department is in the business of paying these guys and hiring USDA to eradicate all treed lion over the paid hounds and reports of those lions killed are simply hauled to the landfill...


I understand management but...This isn't management folks, this is random killing as described in my emails from the USDA head official...No different than what has just been described happening in Arizona and not a peep from sport hound hunters....Simply another round of folks on the board getting worked up about some slob dog man..(Not to be labeled as a houndsmen)

Where are the undercover cops when USDA is allowed to slaughter the first year bear cubs and bury them? No data collected from a single carcass? Bullshit called management is still bullshit, not to mention more illegal than what a few slob dog hunters engage in! I made my point crystal clear to ODFW....You are more illegal than all the prior hound hunters in Oregon combined and your actions should result in accountability and recourse of the law.

The law is crystal clear, any big game mammal that crosses the line becomes a predator, therefore no reason to compile any data. Can we say double standard? I have ten days to turn in a damage animal or suffer recourse of the law. ODFW is the authority having jurisdiction over wildlife management just like in your home State!...How does ODFW know if under harvesting or over harvesting has occurred? The reason for 100% data collection, not landfilling or burying.

Pretty sad when State Government practices shoot shovel and shut up and then points the finger at the majority houndsmen when in reality it is a select few? The anti group is very well represented in Oregon within the upper end management of ODFW, just wait until the Governor appoints the next Director! Pay attention in Arizona and you will see the same pattern and actions within Government! California is also well documented in like type cases, but since it's Government simply becomes over looked and accepted.

Time for all sport hunters to figure this all out! I doubt it will happen, we will get worked up over these random acts consisting of a small minority, rightfully so and over look the biggest offenders, State and Federal Government in all States.
JMHO!

[catsup]

Hope the folks responsible have to own up to their actions. It makes me sick reading about this kind of activity.
There are all kind of losers out there, that's for sure.

[Chris Todd]

Mike I hear what you are saying. Let me say again that I have no problem with lions being harvested. But wasting lions like you have described I have a problem with. I have a real good ideal who is killing lions and leaving them in this area. They are not newbies. Our Game and fish kill alot of lions every year. So maybe these guys figure they should be allowed to do the same.

[mike martell]

Chris

You possibly might be right....Here is my position, these animals, all of them in your State and mine don't belong to a select few or State and Federal Government, they belong to we the people and need to be managed in this manner...I get sick and tired of listening to our previous actions being the biggest contributing factor in the loss of our hound hunting rights for both bear and cougar and how our hounds are "unethical" and what replaced our hounds? Government/contractor Hounds!

Black bear management control, What once was the ability to select harvest over hounds, lost to the ankle catch snare, those are no different than the dog hunter you just described above....Killing and walking away....Pretty tough pill to swallow being pummeled by our own State officials and the logic that all hound hunters can't be trusted as the reasoning for our State recruiting the Federal Government?

I suspect this lion killing will be corrected in due time by proper authority. My point is, this gives all hound hunters a black eye and a liberal left, many of the same found within our perspective Game Commissions never turn down an opportunity to label every single person on this board as the same person you just described above.

Take care
Mike

[pegleg]

Our wildlife is owned by the public. Same as public lands. Just because I lease the grass and do upkeep on the waters and fencing doesn't mean I OWN it. That's a hard truth for many of these guys who have inherited their leases or had them long enough they get overly possessive. If a public owned cat eats my calf on public owned land its something you chalk up as cost of business if its a percentage issue you find the legal solution. Here tags are so cheap its the easiest method of dealing with it. But few areas suffer from that heavy predation. Some do but not many.
The same can be said for hunting . follow the laws, your not above them.
Chris , we all know you don't have to kill everything in front of our dogs to make good hounds or have a good day on the mtn. The guys that are killing kittens and females randomly don't have any defense for their actions. Females can become a problem but that falls under a different heading. Its like sitting on the river bank catching fish all day and tossing them in the bushes. Illegal because it is wrong. Something's are wrong because they're illegal only. This isn't one of those grey areas. So don't let someone talk you down or into second guessing yourself.. Do what you need to be at ease with yourself when your following your hounds down a trail.

[clb]

If a rancher has a lease on state or federal land and his livestock is killed that lion can still be killed and left for depredation and it is legal.

[pegleg]

I look at it like this, it already cost a calf. So why waste anymore? There's always guys wanting a lion willing to buy a tag it makes their day plus the cat can be harvested instead of left to rot. So I get to know someone a little better and meat for the dogs. And like I said above just because a lion takes one calk doesn't make it a stock killer in my mind. There's a area where they are plagues by calf killers and I really don't know what makes them like that but some years they loose a huge number of calves. Over here its sporadic and doesn't exceed natural mortality numbers for areas where lions aren't a issue. But I'm not going to argue the right or wrong of predator control each livestock grower has a different profit margin, but each has the right to contact the state for any predation. I hear how coyotes aren't a threat to beef production, yet i know from personal experiences thats not neccasarily true. We used to loose over twenty percent of our calves to coyotes with the cows in the calf pasture next to the house and someone out there nearly twentyfour hours. While not forty miles away my uncles found it rare to loose a live born calf at all. One of my cousins outside of trinidad had a single black bear nearly ruin him. He took the whole calf away before feeding. All I am saying is we are better off picking which cats we leave on the range . I much rather have a few I know don't make a habit of eating beef taking up space then opening it up to what ever cat that shows up.
As a side note we all have had someone say or insinuate that we are welcome too hunt their land so long as every lion treed is killed. What percentage of that ranch is private ground ? Not much in most of AZ. Regardless Chris has been hunting cats long enough that if he feels its a bullshit kill, I'm willing to bet it is...

[Chris Todd]

CLB,

. l can assure you that is not why these lions are being killed. I know the rancher in the area very well,and he is not loosing livestock to lions. My original intent of this post was to wake these people up. If they will ever see this post or not I don't know. Our GandF dept kills alot of lions every year. They snare them track them,and if they kill one bighorn sheep they just signed their death warrant. Now alot of people may agree with this type of game management of you can call it that. But that is the GandF and I guess they have the authority to waste wildlife