rivers and shelf ice

[cfanno01]

I've only been running cats for a couple seasons now so I don't have a lot of experience but like to hunt hard and try to get the dogs going as often as possible. I've passed on a few good tracks this season because they were very close to rivers with shelf ice, and somewhat regret it when I get home. I know I wont catch something I don't run, but I also really care about the safety of the dogs and for some reason I am very nervous around rivers. Maybe I'm over-thinking the possibility of a dog drowning? What do you more experienced guys think or do in situations like this? Thanks

[Dan McDonough]

I'm with you, shelf ice is very dangerous. They can take some of the bumps and bruises of crashing through and falling a couple of feet or even into shallow water but the closer you get to the river the higher the risk and the cat can go a lot closer than the dogs in most cases. The only way I can get away with risking it is if I turn out a hard tracking Jagdterrier to push it back out of the area if possible. You have to accept that the dog has a better than normal chance of not coming back though. I just hang a bell on the terriers in that circumstance and cut the chances of loosing a set of colloars in addition to the dog. Lucky for me I have a terrier that I'm not all that attached to. The best way to be ready for it is to take that small dog and put it on a half frozen creed that isn't deep and isn't flowing hard so it gets used to the feel of the unstable ice and where not to go if it doesn't want to get wet. Some figure it out and some of those tough little monsters don't care if the water is cold. I haven't found a lot of Jagdterriers that can catch a bobcat regularly but a lot of mine can at least run one decent. It doesn't always work the way you want it to but sometimes it works just fine if all you expect the terrier to do is move the race over a little.

[david]

You have chosen a sport that is dangerous. There are many situations that could cost you your life. If you need me to list a few for you, let me know. There are even more situations that could take the life of your dog. Falling into an ice choked river where you or your dog can't get out is certainly a life threatening situation. Also, wolves kill a number of dogs in the Great Lakes areas every year, also cars kill hounds in these areas every year. Angry land owners have been known to shoot dogs, as have folks who feel the dogs are chasing deer or livestock. Killing traps and snares can and have killed dogs in these areas. But in my own personal experience, the greatest danger to a dog's life in these areas are porcupines. Hopefully you can find an area to hunt that has no cars, wolves, ice, private property, deer, livestock, traps or porcupines. If you can't though, and you want to make a bobcat dog, you are going to have to let him run bobcats. And you are going to be risking your dogs life every time you turn it loose. If that makes the sport too stressful to be fun for you, you have just figured out something that could save you and your dog from danger.

Just do the best you can. There will be certain situations where you won't be able to hunt. Shelf ice probably has stopped some folks from hunting, so I am sure you are not the first. I know one guy that has been stopped from hunting by certain conditions. Razor crust on snow would be one of these. But shelf ice would not stop him from bobcat hunting that day. And he cared about his dogs as much as anyone I know of. He felt that his dogs were happiest doing what they were born to do: hunt. Any time it was in his power to give them that joy, he did. He did not want them to die, ever, but felt that wether he was a dog or a man, he would rather die doing what he loves to do than to die any other way. So he decided to embrace the dangers and fears he had for himself or for his dogs. He ended up with some pretty good bobcat dogs because he seldom had a reason to not hunt.

[merlo_105]

If your Ok with not turning them out in that area then don't regret it. The other night I stopped a jump race the cat was heading towards the river and the river was blown out. They could have caught it before the river or they could have looped it back up, but they could have also tried crossing and been swept down river. There ain't a Varmint thats worth one of my dogs life. Yeah shit happens but I'm not going to put them in the shit. Your the only one who know's the right answer.

[cfanno01]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate the advice. I agree that porcupines are the worst, I hate them and kill each one I see, but they are something that's unavoidable in my opinion. Thankfully no wolves here. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one packing it up cause of an ice filled river. Maybe as I gain more experience it won't bother me as much leaving some tracks for another day.

[Liz ODell]

I agree merlo, there will always be another cat and another day...

[david]

I already know Dans answer to this, so will ask Merlo and Liz: would you ever put a dog on a bear, hog, or on a lion in tree-less rim country?

If you lived in Florida, would you give up hound hunting because of the gators and snakes?

Would you hunt coon in swamp areas where coons can drown dogs?

Just wondering, because I bet any single example above kills more dogs every year than dogs getting in a river and just drowning.

Also wondering what kind of river you have in the Pacific Northwest Merlo where a dog who enters it is automatically dead? I hope you are not breeding dogs like that.

Sounds to me like you need to plan a little river swimming adventure for you and your dogs this summer. Not for you to train them, but for them to show you how it's done.

There have been many coon dogs trained never to cross a body of water. Not because of fear for the dogs life, but because it is a pain in the back for the hunter to find a way across. It would not be hard to do, whatever the reason, and not a bad idea if this is something that is continually causing you to give up for the day.

[merlo_105]

David, I do not live nor do I hunt them area's so i dont know what I would do in them area's. Never said if the dogs get in the river there automatically dead. When the river is at flood stage then yeah Im going to stop my dogs if its any other day then Im going to let them go. That day the river was flooded (Blown Out) so I stopped the race to prevent possibly something happening. Pulling off that critter aint going to hurt my non existing ego nor is it going to hurt my dogs. A good hunter to the West of me almost lost a yound dog to the river thank god some one was there scoop it up. That same day I stopped mine from crossing the road, a friend on the other side of the mountain had a dog pinned up in the river against a log if he didnt get down there in time there is no doubt that dog wouldn't be here today. My dogs cross creeks and rivers all the time so no need for swimming lessons this year.

[david]

Cfanno: as Merlo said, it is up to you. There are folks who will and folks who won't. I won't go into the swamps myself until the water will hold me up. Even then I have been in situations where I wished real bad I was not. I learned to do my research before I drove the three hours to find a track. Because by that time, if I found a track, I was going to put down on it.

Merlo still wondering if you would put down on a bear? Nearly all your bear hunting buddies are going to have stories of could have lost a young dog today.

[mark]

A little common sense sure goes a long ways in life,especially in dog hunting. But if you are going to keep your dog/dogs safe from every adverse condition you can think of you better leave the pickup at home because i am positive they have killed or ended a dogs hunting ability thousands of times over what any ice or river ever has.

[merlo_105]

David, I don't run bear nor will I. Ain't for the fear of the dogs just not my gig. Like Mark stated some common sense will go along ways. Would you let your dogs take a track across I5 during rush hour probably not. I'm not one scared for my dogs lifes every time I turn out. I'm just not dumb and a furry critter ain't worth it TO Me.

[david]

Agreed. A furry critter isn't worth it to me either. I will probably never even hunt again if I live 2 hours from the closest place to train dogs.

Not sure how I got so far into this conversation. I should have just said a river has never stopped me from putting on a bobcat track. And I have never lost a dog because if it.

As far as claiming to have common sense as a bobcat hunter, I think you can claim to be a bobcat hunter, and you can claim to have common sense, but you are going to have to give up the one to have the other.

Or let me refine that: I had to give up the one to have the other. Ther may be places and times and situations where you don't have to. I hope so. I am looking. But I still haven't found what I'm looking for

[mike martell]

Agreed. A furry critter isn't worth it to me either. I will probably never even hunt again if I live 2 hours from the closest place to train dogs.

Not sure how I got so far into this conversation. I should have just said a river has never stopped me from putting on a bobcat track. And I have never lost a dog because if it.

As far as claiming to have common sense as a bobcat hunter, I think you can claim to be a bobcat hunter, and you can claim to have common sense, but you are going to have to give up the one to have the other.

Or let me refine that: I had to give up the one to have the other. Ther may be places and times and situations where you don't have to. I hope so. I am looking. But I still haven't found what I'm looking for

Most of the concerns today as far as turning a dog loose are brought on by modern technology, Garmin has ruined the sport in many aspects from being worried about too many obstacles to over come when just a few short years back we found out after the fact. We had a saying back then when we turned out....Dog gone!

I can only remember one time prior to GPS or Telemetry that I turned a dog loose and never saw it again or recovered the hound.. Prior to any knowledge of where our hounds were heading, we just dealt with the hazards. More good hounds died by being struck by vehicles mainly bear hunting than by swimming or crossing rivers. The picture was taken some 30 years ago on the Oregon Coast night hunting. I was in a pretty desirable place back then and hunted 5-7 nights a week and hunted the water ways all winter...

Once in a while the hounds would swim a swollen river and leave you wondering how on earth you would ever get to the hounds. Roe vs Wade had an all different meaning back then! One night during the dead of winter on the Alsea river my dogs swam the swollen river and I borrowed the skiff in the picture from an old man and it didn't get the job done, luckily a drift fisherman come along with a good drift boat and rowed me to the other side where I went to the tree and grabbed my dogs.




Life is short.....Just hunt!

Mike

[Dan McDonough]

Who'd of thought this one would have turned out to be entertaining!

[mike martell]

Who'd of thought this one would have turned out to be entertaining!

The first thought that entered my mind? You got to be kidding me! What the heck, do we hunt or make excuses.
Wrong business to be in if you allow every little situation to dictate your next move.....