Bill Green's breeding advisor

[JTG]

I went back on this post and read the following below. Note, the Lee's got them from Texas, Corrigan Texas not far from the Huntsville prison. I talked to my friend, who's dad had some of his own and also My friend who is a long time bluetick breeder and was friends with the Lee brothers, and was around those days. Both of them told me the same story. The early hounds were 2/3 hound and 1/3 bloodhound. The early, Lee hounds were of this breeding, once they had the nose from the bloodhound and speed from the hounds they stopped adding bloodhound.

Gifts Given to Press. have always been Documented ... And I would Guess it can be Found in the Library of Congress Web. Site .. with a little looking ..

This is what I was wondering, What was the Crosses the Lee Brothers had at the Time the Bill bought hounds from them ...

Then I found this Artical in Full Cry that Has a Very Indepth Combination of Crosses ..

But I had a Question of What was a "Corrigan Hound" and thru Searches only comes up as a Town in Texas .. Corrigan, Tx. .. Their are No other References other than that.. So the Redtick Hounds the Lees Used were "Corrigan Hounds" ??

[Jimmy Lee]

That's bill Corrigan from silver city a lion hunter and sheriff.he got them from jack thompson a government lion hunter.

[Jimmy Lee]

Pilot was out of bull and queen and they both were 50/50 crosses.that's the best they ever produced before they turned into dog jockeys.

[Goose]

The book by mr Whitney wouldn't happen to be " How to breed better dogs" would it, that's the only one I can find written by him.

[pegleg]

OK . I gather from this you feel "bloodhounds" should be given credit for something for some reason. But " French hounds" shouldn't be. I can't quiet see if this is a national pride issue or something else. I feel some things need to be cleared up. When you speak of brindle bloodhounds this clearly omits the akc bloodhound. Which is what most readers envision when the name is read. Not the fila or Brazilian bloodhound. Which is brindle but carries far more mastiff blood and traits then hound. And considering the fact no where can you register the offspring of a bloodhound X fila as a purebred of either breed they have to be accepted as different breeds. Then you say that the hounds had no French influence at all. "Not even close". I'm not saying they did. But you say the bloodhound provided the hybrid qualities that were so prized. Ok. But no where can I find a separation from the modern bloodhound from French hounds. They are alternatively described as being developed from , hounds of Gaul. Normandy hounds, and Talbot hounds this all culminates in the saint Hubert hounds as not only being the direct ancestor of the bloodhound breed but as being the same.. Now for those not willing or able I'll provide some decoding. Gaul - French/France. Normandy- France. See the pattern? Saint Hubert Abbey located in the Ardennes region of France. This then leads to the name blood hound. Originally "blooded hound" which like blooded horse meant a purebred. Well here in the USA it isn't hard for us to recognize the different amount of visible and not visible hound traits in a dog. We have plenty of examples of various mixtures. So it is easy to see that the more pronounced these traits are the more houndy a dog is. The English used bloodhound as a descriptor then name for hounds who exhibited these pronounced Normandy or saint Hubert's traits. Now this is all easily verified by simple online research. And I'm not about to waste my time arguing with anyone who doesn't have enough motivation in learning to first do their own independent research.
The first things anyone who spends much time looking is going to find is that hound means hunting dog first and foremost. Elkhounds, Swedish hounds, Russian bear hounds , Karelians, greyhounds , staghound and wolfhounds all carry the name. But they aren't what you picture or expect in north america going into a bear,lion or bobcat hunt. You picture a scent hound and those are the hounds doing the work. Then your going to notice that scenthounds not only show the most diversity and development in the region of France and the swiss border but the oldest descriptions in any language and engravings and paintings all come from this region.
I'm open to anyone showing me historical records that show distinctive scent hound types originating in another region.

[JTG]

They had both blood hound and French Gascoigne in those early hounds, and keep in mind the bloodhounds of those days( around 100 years ago) are much different than those today in both looks and performance . Both of these hounds gave size, one gave them nose and the other speed,the speed came from the hounds. Once they had enough nose, they stopped adding bloodhound, this was around Cell Lee days. (This information did not come from me but from a letter I have from a breeder back in those days.) But when I requested the information, I was doing so to confirm some of my own research.
Pegleg you are right of course they had French blood, but some of the online research and books that are written are not always true.
To me, hound still means hunting dog first and foremost, but the best scent hounds were and still are developed in the US.

[Jimmy Lee]

Your rite alot of hounds were bred in France and Europe.as the bloodhound goes its not clear if they were actuality bred in Europe or England thats as far as records go.Lee bros queen hound was half English foxhound and half English bloodhound brindle in color.she came from lord Hereford.

[Jimmy Lee]

That's lord bereford this machine keeps trying to correct me.

[pegleg]

I do think research might be misleading if its based on a single source or sources that have relied upon each other solely as means of their own verification. However the history of the bloodhound as a breed is easily verified from multiple unique sources including gift registries and tallies of conquest. The development of the English foxhound is also very well written about as a whole as it was typical of the owners of these packs and their master of hounds to record every event very carefully and its added to the history of the "house" .
I have a book "histories of famous packs and hunting traditions of the great houses"
It is actually a collection of all horse and hound entries to be found in the records and histories of each house. Its not overly old being printed in the 1800's however the research goes back prior to the 1600's
As reading its kinda dry. But its pretty thorough on its inclusion of portraits of the hounds and especially any gifted or imported hounds. The old quarterly review on the turf,the chase,and the road. (I didn't name it,not very concise IMO) is also pretty revealing in the specific hounds used in deferent improvement schemes by the British houndsmen.
Anyway the paintings sketches and other images depict dogs that resemble a roughcoated flop eared collie right up to the 1700's. I will see if I can't share them some how. I don't have a scanner though.
All of these writings put more value on speed , endurance and control as a whole pack. Then scenting ability not something I agree with.
But one master stated. He felt the male fox gave more scent then the vixen or kits and a less inquisitive hound was most likely to pursue dog fox giving better sport.
Could very well be true as our hounds when given two trails tend to take a tom lion over the female. I haven't ever hunted red fox with hounds so I can't comment there.
I'd like more information on lord bereford if you have it.

[david]

The book by mr Whitney wouldn't happen to be " How to breed better dogs" would it, that's the only one I can find written by him.

Yes that is one of his books and is excellent. He also wrote "The Coon Hunters Handbook". It is maybe "old school" and I have not read it in probably 30 years, but I loved it as a young kid wanting to learn how to coon hunt!!

You can probably find one if you do a search.

[david]

Also, I know of a copy of "the coon hunters handbook" that you might be able to buy if you can't find one.

[pegleg]

David. Have you ever run across a american printed book from the late 1700's to early 1800's that was a small book bound in a thick but flexible cover. It had the different hunting breeds in it available at that time or maybe just common. It covered a little bit of everything but mostly from a pot hunters perspective. It also had some different cross bred dogs for different traits. It had section on actual hounds successfully used on wolves and how they were bred. And how to improve the treeing traits in a hound by X breeding. Most illustration were sketches . I lost mine and can't seem to find one and not remembering the title or author is a hinderence . sorry for hi jacking the thread

[david]

Sounds like a gem, but no, have never seen or heard of it. Would sure like to read what he said on a couple topics mentioned.

[Jimmy Lee]

Yes fox hounds are well record but the bloodhound on the other hand its not so clear it all depends on what version ya want to run with the french ,Belgium,or English.

[Jimmy Lee]

A good book to read is american trail hounds by Fred streever published in 1948.Leon Whitney's books are good he published around forty.