Bobcat Jump Style

[twist]

David please tell me where I insulted any one. If i did so i apoligize. Al i can promise you that i have never gotten bored with catching cats in 33 yrs of doing it! My adiction has grown stronger the older i get. Andy

[dhostetler]

David,
First off what I posted about silent dogs, was not meant to offend anybody. I want to apologize to anybody I offended. I went back into the classifieds and searched where I posted that to try to figure out who I may have offended and I can't really figure it out, as my post was meant only in general to the discussion about breeding cur dogs to run silent, and not at all to anybody in general. Most hunters are all at a certain point in catching success if someone is not happy with there success and want a silent dog to up there odds than that is better than screwing around with the same old dogs and catching every once in a while. It was not so many years ago that I had a poor record of catching bobcats but with different dogs I started catching more. During the course of this discussion I received messages from other hound guys regarding this post however they refused to join in because of the way a lot of these posts go downhill into personal slander, so I for one do not want to contribute to the cause of people refusing to post. I have broad shoulders so David what I post is my opinion and you are anybody are more than welcome to challenge it or tell me throw my GPS away and hunt in the dark

Second I appreciate your invitation however I will politely decline. I personally think my dogs would stretch a bobcat in the type of country I hunt in if given the chance however I think in brushy country my dogs would have a serious learning curve on how to run a bobcat. I have an open invitation to run with 2 different hound guys in Oregon (or I hope I still do). They regularly catch bobcats on the ground. I would rather spend a day driving to Oregon I run a couple dogs with there dogs than drive a day or two somewhere with only my dogs to bugger bark a bush.

[mark]

Well what do you expect when you make a statement that you wonder if brush hunters even know the difference between their dogs being jumped or still trailing because we cant see em. I mean i dont care how many you catch or what you catch em with as long as you are happy with em, ur feeding em.

[Tanner Peyton]

How would a fella go about rounding up some of them silent tracking curs that would push a dry dirt bobcat? Just wondering.

[david]

My theory was my way of trying to understand why my dogs would never catch cats in areas where cats do not climb. When I acted on my theory to test it, I started catching cats to the point it became boring for me.

David would you mind sharing with us where you got this line of dogs that caught cats on the ground, to point it became boring for you? Also what breed were those dogs? Don/t believe I would ever get bored with that line of dog. I have enjoyed reading this post, have not read any comments that offended me, after all we have just exchanged opinions based on our own experience. Take care Al

Thanks for asking Al. It is no secret because I wrote a book about it and it is all over this web site and the previous two web sites and it is in this thread. Some of it in the book is coded because I was trying hard not to sound as narrow minded as I actually am. And there were some things that could not be said for various reasons. But if you read the lines and a little bit in between them, you will find your answers to my experiences that caused me to want to write a book; and for the most part, to quit bobcat hunting(Which I am pretty much in the process of most of the time).

One of the older cat hunters who read my book had one quiet but deeply cutting comment: "Some things should never be spoken". And by that he meant I had spoken some of those things. And in the era he came up in, it was very much that way. And it was his kind that I wanted to learn from but could not.

In a nutshell, to repeat what has been said several times by several people: you need to find a dog that runs to catch. What I used to think was running to catch, it turns out is not running to catch. Dogs that run to catch, CATCH. I have only owned one dog that did, at the end of my cat hunting identity, and it blew my mind. Talk to Brad about an out-cross way back in his line. You probably already know what that out-cross was Al. Talk to Dewey about an out-cross way back in his line out of California. The quickest way to get it is by an out-cross. The most lasting way to get it is by selective breeding within an already pure bred line. But most of us do not have the resources of a wealthy king with a full time paid kennel/hunt staff, and that is about what that pure-bred method requires.

Since writing the book, I have hunted bobcats coast to coast alone and with some highly accomplished bobcat hunters and what would be considered top dogs. What I learned from that is: I don't know Jack. I guess I already knew that, but what little I knew kept getting smaller and smaller like the earth might look as you are leaving it to fly to Jupiter. The most amazing thing about that is that these men enjoyed the book and felt like they trusted me some what because they felt like they knew me a little bit.

And I will tell you that most of them would have no part of any dog I have ever owned. And many of them would have no part of the dogs of a lot of people on here. They were from all different parts of the country, each place had it's own culture and its own priorities and its own problems to solve regarding bobcat hunting with dogs. Some of them have shown up on this site and quietly disappeared. And at least in part, it is because arrogance backed up by ignorance is just plain unattractive.

Each of us in our own little environment spend a life time trying to learn how things work in that environment, and if you never leave that environment, that really is all you need to know. But as soon as you climb on here, you have left that environment in some ways. I could give you a list of things that we say that are offensive to people who don't live where we live, or hunt the way we hunt or use the dogs we demand are the only thing that could be called "complete". But I won't give you that list for a couple different reasons.

Just remember though, when I am emphatically "telling it like it is", I am actually telling it like I think it is. And I am usually wrong, because that is just what I can see in my environment. But there is a whole universe beyond me that I know nothing about. And now that whole universe is listening to me tell it like it is. And at least some one out there knows I have exposed myself. Most of them we will never hear from. That is not their way. Some through the last ten or twelve years we have heard from briefly. And then they are gone.

As far as it getting boring for me, If I had the perfect finished bobcat dog that caught most of the bobcats you put him on, and he was my only dog; I probably wouldn't even hunt unless I was collecting hides. There is nothing very exciting about that, and I am not really learning anything new by it, and if he is catching cats on the ground, I worry about my cats. There are so many different dogs from different people and millions of pups I would like to try and to learn from and be challenged by and find out their full potential. My only use for a finished dog is to help me with that process. But once a pup has a full idea what we are trying to do, And I understand the dog, my desire to use a finished dog is minimal.

And after saying all that, this will sound out of place, but:
On an intellectual and spiritual level, bobcat hunting just doesn't matter to me. I get so emotionally wrapped up in it. And then I step back and look at myself and am embarrassed by it. It just doesn't matter. If I could find a way to make things better for my family by it, then it would matter. If I could help other people have a better life by it, then it would matter. But in both those cases I always fail. The only way it matters is that it gives me a reason to use my body in a physical way. There are plenty of other ways to do that, but none of them motivate me. So as of now, I have a young renegade and a puppy and no bobcats. They don't matter, but I do enjoy them. There is nothing I want to prove with them. But they make me smile and they smell good.

I wanted to say one more thing. There are several people on this site that need to write a book. Please do it. Quit hunting for a year if you have to and focus and get it done. It is not easy, it is hard. But it will do some things for you and for others that nothing else can do.
I bet there are at least a hundred books on trapping that have been written. Maybe multiple hundreds. And I wish I owned all of them. I love reading them. Many are very short and written by people that are not accomplished writers. That makes them even better to me.
Most are very simply put together. Why cant we have a hundred books on bobcat hunting? Please, just do it.

Duane, I am glad for your thread. And I will include Andy in that too since it is a Montana bobcat thread. It was good to learn about what you guys are doing. It sounds like you have all you could want or need for dogs. I hope you find contentment with that and just feel really good out there with your hounds. I am really glad to see you brought out some guys that I did not even know were around, and what they shared was amazing and did not receive the attention it deserved. Great. Thank you.

[david]

How would a fella go about rounding up some of them silent tracking curs that would push a dry dirt bobcat? Just wondering.

Tanner go to this thread "looking for breeders" in the classified adds. This thread actually sprang up out of that thread. There are a couple leads there for you.

Click here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=44398

[merlo_105]

This has been a very interesting thread. A lot of opinions a lot of knowledge.

[pegleg]

Well tanner if your asking about really dry dirt I haven't seen one . maybe they're there somewhere but I haven't seen it. What I have seen is crossbred dogs and some hounds that can do it. But here's something most people know just don't consider as often as they could. Here "az" our soil is in belts or stripes or whatever. But it changes in strange ways. If it freezes if it holds moisture how much how it dries all kinds of differences. Now catching cats in some areas isn't so hard. But some areas if that tracks a hour old some of the coldest nosed dogs I've seen will never trail it. They can trail a lion through there but a bobcat nope. Hounds are to be envied sometimes. It makes little difference what happened that day they eat dinner and go to sleep. I've stayed up the whole night wondering why a good track flat disappeared? It seems easy in retrospect but I took a while to figure out just a few of the things that may cause it. Just like it was mostly trial and error that taught me the type of dog that works best. It has to want that cat bad. It has to be intelligent cold nosed and able to cold trail quickly and break free and run when its time. Its easier to get a couple of these in a crossed litter then pure but you never know how it will breed later on. So I hold myself to trying to breed hounds with these traits. It sounds much easier then I've found it to be.

[pegleg]

I all add I have some dogs that catch cats three to be exact. But alone that number goes down or if I pair the wrong two of them together. They like trailing a little too much. But are fast and jealous enough if you hunt them with a faster running dog they'll push make a few mistakes but catch the cat and the quality of other dog can vary a lot. They aren't slow trailing but just to accurate and thorough alone. Alone they will trail through a mesquite or catclaw etc. With other dogs they'll make a guess and skirt it on the run. It was just the way it turned out for me. I was looking for a hard driving dog with the willingness to slow down when they had to. And I've managed that some but the first type breeds truer with my dogs. Not ideal but it works

[ethertonee]

I was the one asking about the terrain and the best dogs to use in our tight quarters in central Nebraska. It was recomended that a silent dog Most likely a cur would work best in our hunting conditions. After running a silent dog for a few months I am seeing the potential.

I am not offended at all by any comments made on any of these threads.(you didn't disrespect my kids or wife, so you didn't offend me) I am very happy about the open debate and the knowledge you are all willing to share from All of your levels of hunting experience. You are all helping describe your own ideal dogs and what works for you and help me realize what would work best for me in my hunting conditions. Let me just say this first if I hunted the various types of game that you hunt in Montana DHolister I would have dogs that hunt In the style you use and be very happy and proud of them. I could move to a similar region but it would lead to me hunting way to much, getting fired from work and destroying my family, not an option to me. (We all have are weaknesses and I know mine all to well HUNTING) So I was looking for the best option that would work for me. The type of dogs you run could catch cats hear, but they would have crossed 3-5 property lines and spooked a lot full of really expensive cattle. I would spend a lot of time in court, lose my job, and not be able to get permission to hunt again in my area for running those expensive cattle through the fence.

Now for the sake of discussion and in my case education if your dogs ran silent or semi silent and can close the gap like they do how man cats would get stretched on the ground. The cat doesn't know they are there so they are much closer to the cat when it does jump giving them that much more of an edge. This silent dog I was given runs to catch, I couldn't run this dog on bear because I would have to bury him after the first time as he would be dead. He isn't super fast just supper smart and efficient, and he runs to catch he is pissed if the animal trees and he doesn't get to chew on it. He will climb a 10' cedar or any tree he can and pull a coon right out of it.

I under stand you like to hear the dogs and that brings you pleasure and happiness which is why most all of us hunt along with the challenge. I don't mean to offend anyone or there dogs just looking for you to ponder this before you respond.

Ed Etherton

PS had the best night of huntig last night all year, only thing the dogs caught was a trash run possum on the ground and had to call them off another tree as they crossed a fence and had a coon on the neighbors. It was the best because it was just me and my 5 year old daughter and we walked talked and had fun and that is what makes me the happiest hunting right now. When my daughters are grown and hunting with dad isn't to cool any more then my hunting priorities will change as well as what type of dogs I need to run. I want to thank all of you for helping me to speed that process up when the time comes.

[Tanner Peyton]

Yeah that was my bad, I started that thread "looking for breeders". I got a run of great info off that and thank all of you for your in put. I have decided to go with a silent cur type of dog. Due to the real small tracts of land I hunt one section or less at a pop. Now I would like to get more of a cold nose dog to run the dry typ of climate, less then 15 inches of precipitation a year. I have found a few good canadats that might fit the build but I still have a year before I drop the hammer and buy a few pups. I did figure out my old profile I started on here awhile ago so I'm using it from now on.

[tstillwell]

I am newer to varmint hunting with this newer breed of walker dog but I might be wrong.I had walkers dogs about 20 yrs ago and only about 2 of them dogs every had what it would of took to make good varmint dogs what I would of considered. Back then I had some dogs from good coast hunters but never caught the varmints I do now and I believe it is these dogs truly have the drive that they truly want to catch. Also I always here people want these silent dogs which I no will catch a varmint faster but why do you have hounds if they are silent the hound experience is to hear the dogs not just after they are jumped. I believe open mouth good cold trailing dogs will catch as much or more game then silent dogs because they get more game up and running plus you get to experience the hunt.I just get frustrated when I hear people always wanting a silent dog why even hunt with dogs.I my self do have some that aren't cold nosed but not by my choice and someday day hopefully thru breeding they all will have the characteristics I like. I now understand how much breeding makes on catching varmints makes. But somebody like Mike or Dewey is better at answering something like that. This is all jmo

[Tanner Peyton]

I agree with you a 100% and if I had the space to run a cat with an open on track dog you bet I would. Now I'm a complet and total rookie so I could be dead wrong but 95 percent of my jumps ended up in me calling my dogs back. Because the race almost always worked its way onto the neighbors. Best case I have a half a mile to either get the jumped cat caught or turned around. That's best case. If a silent dog can shorten the race then maybe in stead of catching 1 out of ever 150 I jump I might catch two or three. And I'm good with those numbers. I'm not trying to take over the bobcat world just catch one or two more cats a year. Hunting silent dogs isn't the end of the world for me but I will miss the sound of the race. How ever I feel like Ive worn out the open dog on trail thing and now its time to try something different.

[dhostetler]

I have heard, that a lot of the cats caught by silent curs is when they cold trail silently and end up in the cats bed, surprising it into immediately treeing. I can definetily see how that would be a benefit on hunting small parcels. I have had a lot of bobcat cold trails end in a lion tree, silent dogs surprising a bedded lion is a recipy for disaster.

[ethertonee]

DHostetler (sorry I misspelled your name In my previous post it was not meant to be disrespectful just a mistake I suck at spelling.). I have been pondering the way that you and Andy have described the way your cats run and the low cat densities in your area. While it is most likely a combination of factors why the cats are not getting caught on the ground both dog style, and terrain features. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the bobcats themselves. Do you think it may have something to do with you living in an area with greater snow fall with the prolonged winter and the cats need to tree to preserve there energy to survive the long hard winter ahead. The cats most likely have a heavier fur coat and carry more body mass and fat. Also you live in an area with steeper train and higher elevations then say Minnesota where they may get similar snow fall but lack the terrain and elevation factors. The low cat densities I assume follow lower pray densities as well. Do you think this may have something to do with an adaptation over time to cause the cats to have adapted these carricteristics to survive over time and tree and not run themselves to exhaustion before treeing and dieing as a result latter on in the season.

I am thinking along the lines of how the wolves ran the majority of the elk off the winter range and starved them out 2-3 to every 1 they kill. No the Feds won't ever back that up, but the guys that fly the biologist around to monitor the wolves and elk will tell the truth they don't have to answer to the man to get there funding. Now the elk are sticking to the timber to survive and adapting to preserve the few that are still left. Or the body size of deer from Texas to northern Montana. I was also thinking of how over a hard winter the game die off due to the prolonged stress.

This is all just some thoughts that I have pondered for a couple of days and since I hadn't seen any of you talking about it thought I would through it out there. I am no biologist just try to observe the game pursued.

Ed Etherton