training pups to cold trail

[dwalton]

I was asked on a PM as to how I train my pups to cold trail I thought it would be good for a post for all. Most important is breeding, pick a pup as to what you want it to do. Now cold trailing is not taking a track step to step for me it is being able to move a old track or a track in adverse conditions. Pick a pup that is not a ADS kid but one that is calm that works with its head up. I like my pups born in the late fall or winter for two reason, one they will be ready to start the next winter and they with get to play with a lot of dead bobcats[ at home] all winter thus knowing what to run before they get to run trash[ inprinting them to bobcats]. During the summer those pups will learn to load and come to me when called or toned and will be broke to tie. In the fall the pups will get turned out when the old dogs strike a bobcat. All I want them to dog is just go with the older dogs no opening and no treeing, just there with the old dogs. Ones that open on track or tree at that early of age to me is just a me to dog in most cases, he won't stay here. Soon you will hear the pup opening on jump, then you will see him giving tail on scent. I expect no more until they are 14 to 18 months old. When I start a cold track I will very seldom call a dog back instead I walk the dogs as to where I think the cat went to get them pass the dead spots. Sometimes it only takes a little ways on a track the way the cat went for the scent to get better. In snow I walk them out the track showing them it time and time again. Most dogs have the ability to cold trail they just have to get their confidence in their ability as you do. If the dogs is ADS it will be running every where looking and accomplishing nothing. My dogs hunt at a run but it has a purpose, most dogs are expected to run a track that they have never stopped to smell. Never call a dog off a track to go look for a fresh one where I hunt you may never find another track all day and you are not building the dogs confidence in it's ability to find the cat. Moving a cold track is the most important part of catching bobcats. I am sure there are a lot of little things that I have learned over the years to get the dogs to cold trail that I have over looked. It is the breeding of the pups and how they are hunted that makes them good cold trailers. A lot of hunting.The disposition of the pup has a lot to do with it and the confidence built into the pup by cold trailing. One thing I thought of is that I am a firm believer that you have to hunt a dog in adverse conditions to make them top cold trailers. The dogs have to learn to get past the dead spots to build their confidence. I hope this has answered as to what I do to help a dog learn to cold trail and become a bobcat dog. Dewey

[scott wallace]

Great post

[pegleg]

I like calmer hounds myself. Scatter brained hi energy types don't work to well on tracks that require them to buckle down and work. But I expect my pups to open on tracks they can smell and to be working it. I also expect them to make losses and generally screw up every so often. But the desire to run a track has to be there with the desire to catch game. I don't worry about treeing until the dog can start and finish its own track by then they all tree well enough for me. The light really comes on for young dogs after a older dog works a few bad tracks into caught game. I believe all dogs have a age or strength meter on what tracks they think can be caught so the sooner they're shown a few bad tracks can be finished they are more willing to work them.

[al baldwin]

No desire to disagree with anyone, have seen some dogs that really hustled a track that turned into very good cold trailing dogs. My old skinner hound was a perfect example. I agree with pegleg, working young dogs with a good cold trailing dog has help many learn to work cold tracks. I will try to help the dogs some on those old tracks, when possible, but lots of times i feel it best to let them figure out looses for themselfs. I have seen calm acting dogs that never made a good cold trailer, so not sure that has much to do with what type a cold trailing dog becomes. Everyone to there own belief & what works for them. I do not mind a young dog opening some on a cold track, have noticed the ones that were opening on track, would open at the same places were the older dog opened. Agree 100% not good to have them opening because older dogs are opening. Al

[pegleg]

Well for me I've seen to many amped up dogs run around in circles and mess up a cold track. The other reason is they seem to depend on more game to become good dogs also if they don't see it the tendency to get trashy seems much stronger. Not that my dogs don't get excited they do they just seem to realize when methodical is the only way to move forward to the good track where they can move it.

[dwalton]

One thing I thought about training a dog to cold trail that is important that may not have been express enough is the type of dog that a young dog is raised with. People talk about good old dogs for pup trainers that works well for very young pups but in most cases does not work for me. Here's what I think. When a dogs gets old it may slow down and not be able to pack up and will bark a lot more in one spot not progressing a track. That will teach the pup to stay back and slow down or keep going back to the old dog on a track. That's a huge problem just as barking off track or multiple times in the same spot. The perfect dogs will only bark when they have a clean track or in the scent funnel each running for the lead. If you ever have the chance to see a pack of good running dogs on fox or bobcat you will see that when a loose is made it goes quite, no one barking to hear their just head rattle. When one finds the track from the loose it will open and all dogs will honor on a run leaping the track ahead. On a cold track this is very important, all dogs going quite on a loose and all dogs honoring when one opens. Most tree dogs are bred for treeing and lots of mouth. It seems to me that it seems that the trait that running dogs have that work for me are these traits mention above along with conformation, good feet, and just tuff. Each to their own, hunt what works for you and think about the other guys opinions. Dewey

[pegleg]

What do you consider a tree bred hound?

[houndsandterriers]

So here is me not putting my foot in my mouth.

In my mind the dog has ability and limitations, you train the dog to trail and it ether runs the trail with its ability or hits its limitation. If the dog hits its limitation and is unable to complete the task, that would be the point At which you as the houndsmen realize that you droped your dog on a track it could not complete. A winding dog catches the trail on the wind and follows the scent trail to its source (tree dog) It only starts tracks it knows it can run. Both dogs use there nose in entirely differnt ways.

The worst advice i ever read on the internet was that you need a trained hunting dog to train a hunting puppy.(just my unexperianced opinion) The second worst advise i ever read on the internet is to get rid of a dog you couldent train or you thought you couldent train. I have seen my adult dogs teach each new puppy as much in a few months as i could have done in a year in a non hunting setting, the most critical thing any adult dog can teach a puppy is that you are the pack leader. Just because your dog comes to you when you call it the doesent mean that you are the pack leader. Each dog needs to be trained indavvidually to trail with the pack leader not with an adult dog or pack member.

Just my 2 cents

[pegleg]

Well its everyones own opinion I suppose.
I'll start with using older dogs to train pups. I say older not old just because I don't tend to hunt very old hounds much and sure not enough to get through the puppy period like I expect to. I've trained dogs alone and with other hounds both. There are circumstances where training a dog alone on any kind of time table is far more work then its worth IMO. Then there's the issue of what kind of dog you want to end with. Trained alone usually equals a better all around dog but doesn't have to it just makes them try and understand human more if they can't fall back on another dog.solo dogs can be trashier to begin with but end straighter. Pack dogs might be straight in the pack and trashy alone. For me the starting pups solo then later running them in a pack is simpler and still produces a hound I enjoy.
If you can't train a dog I endorse letting it go. Either there's something wrong with the dog or your method so maybe someone else can get the dog finished before its to late. Which is usually the case. As far as how a dog trailing deciding whether its a tree dog or not I can't subscribe to that. All of my dogs tree to my satisfaction and only two are what I'd call treehounds or descended from them.

[dwalton]

Pegleg for me a tree bred dog is one that was bred for the main purpose of treeing game by scent not sight. The coon dogs are the best example Black and Tan,Redbone, Bluetick', and most of the cur breed which were bred to supply meat and furs to sell. Which is where most of our big game hounds origin.
houndsandterriers you are right all dog have there limitations and can learn from other dogs. Myself I am only breeding dogs and hunting dogs to catch bobcats. I have my idea what qualities a bobcat dogs should have to suit me. I have sold some very good bobcat dogs that would not pack up because of the problem they caused training a young dog. I refuse to hunt a dog that barks going to other dogs or barks off track. Some people love a dog that barks all the time on a track if they smell bobcat scent or not but that trait will take away from them catching bobcats. Each to their own. Think about it, you don't see people running bobcats with Basset, gray hounds. Each of these dogs have limitation for bobcat hunting, but it does not mean that you could not catch a bobcat with them,but it is not worth my time to try. Dewey

[pegleg]

Well I suppose in the right areas greyhounds or stags would be quicker and more effective. As a kid ours would hit anything they where aimed at. But it was open country and they didn't do a lot of trailing. I see treehounds as coon/squirrel or maybe bear dogs . I think there's different mechanisms that bring about treeing behavior. And in most coondogs its frustration at the end of scent. I have hunted lots of coon dogs and in some cases they work. In others its useless. I stay as far from puppies that tree first or breeders that brag on the early age their dogs start treeing.
I had two hounds bay a lion in a series of ledges and it was impossible for them to completely stop it. To much pressure and it would hop up or down a ledge and start walking off. One ended above the lion the other same level. They both where treeing but neither could actually see the cat most of the time. I don't walk unless I know the cat is stopped or my horse absolutely can't make it somehow. So they'd been at this for awhile. I watched them and so long as the cat wasn't really leaving they didn't have to be looking at it. Good enough for me. Also as your pack members change the way they do things changes

[al baldwin]

Well this is an interesting thread. I have seen more than a few tree bred dogs that barked very little on track when cold trailing, some that only barked when jumped &, some barked very little when jumped. Yes those dogs have an advantage when trailing dog wise game, however they are not much pleasure for me to hunt. Dewey that cur blood you got from va., from those bear hunters I suspect are tree bred? However I also suspect they are tight mouth trail or you would not keep them? I respect every hunters right to hunt dogs that suit them. Do you consider a dog is barking off track when they come out of box & bark when they race for the dogs who have the track? In that video that John Clay shared some of your dogs were barking as they left the box. So I assumed you took that out of them or culled them? Yes, it would be nice to breed perfect dogs, however I doubt if anyone is doing that. Point is, seems everyone likes. something a little different in dogs. You keep referring to running dogs as being perfect. I ask once you bred in that tree stock, ( without it most dogs would not tree enough here) and produce dogs that tree, do you have running dogs or tree dogs? Please don/t take me wrong, as you say a civil debate can be educational. Al

[twist]

I have seen many tree breed hounds that can catch cats with style that don't over bark on a track and can sure push a cold track with very little effort. Most not all young dogs I have seen that have amounted to anything will over bark at times but with exposure learn to stop the over barking. Andy

[dwalton]

Al. I have dogs that are cross running dog with treeing walker and some cur most are hard tree dogs. My Leopards will bark going to dogs out of the box for a few yards until they learn not to. My dog are all open mouth dogs. There is a lot of noise out there, the key that I am trying to get across is dogs that bark when they have scent and not twice at the same spot. Most hounds babble on track, barking when they don't have a track or going to dogs. When that happens no dog knows if the other has a track they will run back and forth to each other and pretty soon nobody has the track and driving it. For me the key to hunting is time and distance they have to move the track the fast in the shortest amount of time. Be it a cold track or a jump the right dogs can litter run a cold track. I was fortunate to be able to see this with a part running dog over 45 years ago on bobcat in all condition. Why settle for anything else? Al I don't take you wrong it is just hard for me to explain something that I believe most people have not seen. Dewey

[mondomuttruner]

I think I can put up with a few flaws here and there but a dog that barks off track or babbles is something I absolutely wouldn't tolerate. And Dewey, I would hope there are many more out there that know what your talking about. I would think that's what most hunters would strive for. I guess I see it as hounds 101.
Of course, I'm just a lowly tree hound runner.