Obedence

[Tanner Peyton]

Oh man those e collars are great. They can make a fella train so much more efficiently, thus saving time and money. As a rule of thumb I don't shock unless I get an intentional undesired behavior. So if a dog knows better yet he still gets oven come by temptation then yeah, he gets lite up. But assuming he knows right from wrong also assumes that he's been taught right from wrong. If I havent taught him the difference then I have no reason to shock umm and no good will come from a shock at that point. Remember the e collar was invented with the intention of being an extension of the primary teaching method. A way to put some range on the long line.

Tanner

[al baldwin]

Thanks for everyone/s post. I never use the ecollar to correct dogs within 15 feet of me, unless one is barking in the box. However how would one whip a dog that is 15 ft. away from you? Just recent had a dog barking in the kennel, collar on no bark, collar off, barking. Thinking this is going to be a challenge, took a small lease gave him a whipping, collar off for the last couple weeks, no barking, pleasant surprise. Thanks Al

[david]

My safe zone is probably more like 10 feet. And actually, in its extreme, the safe zone is my body. I Have not trained every dog in this way, and have not used it for awhile. Some dogs just won't ever need it.

But when I have a very hard headed dog that I have worked with, you will see him wanting to be close enough to make contact with my body when I give the safe zone command.

This is descended from a method developed by houndsmen long before shock collars. Shock collars make it a lot easier. But in the old method, the dog would be fastened to a long chain (ten or more feet) or even a cord with chain in the last couple feet next to the dog. The cord was passed around a sapling or fence post and the dog was pulled out of the safe zone before being corrected.

Whatever sound you use during correction will be a sound that will cause your dog to seek the safe zone whenever you call him with that sound. For example "HEY!" Repeated with the volume you would use to call him out of a canyon when he is fooling with off game. The dog will want back in the safe zone. So after the correction, he is allowed back in the safe zone.

This system depends on spending a lot of time with the dog in the safe zone being comforted, petted and praised. Do not do the training unless you have twenty minutes or more to spare for building relationship, petting, walking close to you on leash, more petting and praise, and making the safe zone seem unmistakably safe and desireable any time there is trouble; Always.

Again, dogs that are bred "soft" will probably never need the formal training. But if you want to practice a safe zone for them, try pulling them out of the safe zone before any scolding or correction of any kind. And then let them back into the safe zone.

If you do this your dog will never be afraid to come close to you when he senses you are upset. All he will want is to be close to you, because close to you has always been the safest most comfortable place to be. you have always been trustworthy in this way. So you MUST put the lead around something and pull him away from you before correction of any kind to maintain this trust.

[merlo_105]

Dogs are simple repetition stay positive. To much over thinking, dog's are of human design they have been bred for along time to be handled. Some people are dog trainers some people are idiots. Never be in a hurry to train a dog up. You don't want some yahoo roofing your whole house in 10 minutes good things take time more you put in more you get out.

[Tanner Peyton]

David, I once read about a July or trigg dog, the whiskey line if I remember correctly. But anyhow I was reading up on this line and they were bread to be extremely human shy on purpose. I guess when they would take um hunting it wasn't uncommon to lose umm for a few days at a time. To prevent them from wandering into someones farm and taking up residents they were bread real shy. I wonder if the method you speak of above was use for them dogs. I could see it being real handy under under them conditions. It would be pretty heard to steal a dog you couldn't catch, haha. When I read about the whiskey line I always wondered how them old timers got those dogs to come home or come when called. I'll bet that's how. Thanks for the info David.

[david]

Tanner, I was taught that training method by a government hunter out west. They called it chain breaking. And you are right, those guys did not have tracking collars and they did not want anyone picking up their dogs. It might take days to find a dog as it was. But it took a lot longer if the dog was in San Francisco in some ones living room.

Al Renicks dogs, for example were bred that way. He wanted to make sure no one could pick them up other than him. Some of those dogs would hide at the sound of a vehicle unless it was the truck they rode in every day.

I agree with folks that don't like to bother with shy dogs. they can be a pain at times, and can be hard to transfer to someone else. But boy, some of the best game getting hound dogs I have witnessed appeared to be human shy. And that Renick blood found its way into some of the best lines of dogs in the far west.

[david]

I also have owned dogs that seemed very shy when I got them, but they were young and came out of it with a lot of handling and being taken around groups of people etc.

I think It would have been very easy to guide those particular dogs into behaviors like what Al Renick required. I actually have a puppy like that right now. And he has been a pain at times. But I am guessing by the time he is two, no one would ever guess he was so shy as a pup. But it would have been super easy to make him into a dog that would be impossible to catch.

[david]

Dogs are simple repetition stay positive. To much over thinking, dog's are of human design they have been bred for along time to be handled. Some people are dog trainers...

I am not really a dog trainer. I am a hunter though. So I was trying to think of mandatory obedience training in order to catch game with hounds. And really, there probably isn't any that is absolutely mandatory. I have seen game caught with dogs that knew exactly zero about obedience. But just were hunted all the time and figured out what was needed.

The discussion on what is the most pleasurable or most efficient hunting experience is a valid discussion that would include certain actions a dog might do on command.

For me, if my dogs absolutely positively come when I call them, I could be completely comfortable with them. They learn everything else they need to know in the course of hunting them a lot. I enjoy dogs that do tricks, but evidently I don't enjoy that enough to make it happen.

[dwalton]

A lot of the old fox hound bred dogs were man shy. The reasoning was that a dog could not be caught and would travel home if not in range to be called with the horn. It still shows up in some breeding. George Nelson one of the old time government hunters I was told by his brother Don would have stranger whip his dogs to make them shy of strangers. So they could not be caught by anyone else. A thought about early training establishing the safe zone around you. Most pups will come at a early age but at about 4 months old they will get independent, look at you when you call them and just keep on going or doing what is important to them. I work my pups at this independent stage on a 30 foot light rope to get them to hook up and pay attention to me. Just put them on the rope and start walking not saying anything to them. Change direction often to let them come up against the end of the rope, sometimes hard enough to set them off their feet. They need to do it not you pulling, just a steady pressure. Soon they will be by your side looking up at you , pet them and do it for a few days. Soon they will be walking with you and making eye contact. This will not take the hunt or casting out, out of them. When calling a pup or old dog kneel down and get to their level they will come a lot quicker. Our posture can give a lot of messages to a dog how we stand, walk or move. The dog will have what we are up to at a glance and decide if it is safe to come or to avoid us. Breeding and training is all we have to work with in hunting hounds. The better the breeding and the more training we do makes for more enjoyable time in the woods. Why would you have it any other way.The dogs are a tool but more important is the enjoyment we get of spending time with them in the woods or at home. Good hunting Dewey

[ethertonee]

Dewey do you think that your dogs have many of these traits due to genetics, or the fact that you bred them and no one has had any other influence on them and your other dogs have the desired traits you want so they learn from them? I know you train them and spend the time to correct them as well I am just wondering if you think this eliminates a lot of the extra time to break habits. For instance with all my past dogs that I got as puppies, they wont jump a kennel fence or out of the pick up because I put them in there when they were little and afraid to do it unless I helped them out then once they were big enough trained to command to get out. I have a dog that I got from Tanner that is very well behaved and a supper nice dog. He is my buddy so much that unless he is hunting he will jump out of the pick up or over the fence to be by my side or looking for me to get there. He wasn't a puppy when I got him and I wasn't able to train him the way I have in the past so I am trying to do a couple of other things to get him to do this. He is coming to me the safe zone, and looking for me so it is more challengeing. He is also supper smart as I only have to teach him a desired trait a time or to and he has it. My female is hard for me to kennel because I have used it for a safe zone in the past but have had to discipline her for barking in it and again lately because i kept a friends dog for a week and it barked a lot and got her going again, she doesn't like to go in unless I give her some reassurance away from the gate or bribe her with a treat. She will go right in the one in the pick up though and she was punished there as well only in the past, but she knows now that the pick up means fun times.

[david]

So here's one for you: I got a call from a Freind who has trained top competition versatile dogs. He described pulling porcupine quills out of a young English hound today. She had some in her mouth as well as the other usual areas.

He didn't have to hold her. She stood on the tail gate and let him pull quills out of her mouth. He said he trains dogs for that from the time they are pups. He teaches them they are never allowed to close their mouth on his hand. He said at the same time he often handles their feet and toes while they stand. (Like a horse trainer). Therefore he never has any difficulty trimming nails.

That was inspiring to a non-dog trainer like me. Some useful information to think about.

She stood there, unrestrained, and let him pull quills. Wow.

[dwalton]

Genetics is important, for bobcat hunting I want a smart dog with that you may get a dog that is what I called soft, that will not take much abuse. Dogs do learn from the older dogs be it a good habit or a bad one. I have 17 dogs and pups here now all but 2 are sons and daughters or grandsons or granddaughter of Rose. She was so shy when I got her at 8 months old that I did not let her out of a kennel for a month because I did not think I would catch her again. When she got that I felt I could hunt her she would not come to load up if anyone but me was outside of the cab. Most people would not see that in her now. Did I like it no but put up with it until I could see if she could move a cold track the way I wanted and she could. I started back hunting10 years ago with a 20 and a 7 month old dogs. I treed 5 cats in last month of that cat season. The next year I treed 16 with those two dogs and a young Leopard but jump 25 that they did not tree. When Rose started hunting the next year I treed 45 bobcats in the 3 month season. I got the key to bobcat hunting from her. If it was not for her ability to move a cold track I would not put up with the problems that she had to over come. The key was for me to build the trust in her to get what I wanted from her. From her off spring I have build a bobcat pack that suits me. The nice thing is that she does not pass on her shyness to her off spring. I feel that a mistake in handling or when one loses their temper will set you back with a dog such as Rose and to a degree with any dog. I also believe that any interaction we have with a dog is teaching it something it maybe good or bad habits that we are not aware at the time that the dog is learning. Once it is there it is hard to undo. I try never to ask something of a dog that I don't think I will get the right answer or that I am not in the position to reinforce. I ask when I think I will get the right answer, use a tone or seldom shock a dog. WE train from our perspective, how we see it. If we could or a least try to come at it from the dogs perspective might it be easier? It is important to me to raise my dogs from puppies. It is hard to change a dog that has not had the right up bringing. Not that it can't be done. We all expect something different out of our dogs, I expect a lot, each to their own. David that is a example of what one can teach a dog if they just take the time. It just seems like like would be a lot easier if we just took the time to train our dogs. Dewey

[merlo_105]

David, You see a lot of Bird dogs trained like that there Whoa Broke. Stay... The fastest way to get a dog doing what you want is with an ecollar when it comes to handling for hunting. George Hickox is one of the best handlers and trainers of Bird dogs. He has a few videos out on how to train a dog correctly with fast results with an e collar. Yes theres other ways. But take the time and look it up. The dog will be conditioned and trained with the collar so no non sence. You direct the dog early on what you want. After that repetition.

[merlo_105]

So simple tasks like come, kennel, load. Will be fast and simple. And get a person in the woods with a easier handling dog. Breeding has a lot to do with things but anything with a brain can be trained look at sea world.

[barksalot]

Merlo; You are correct with the sea world reference but I believe that training is mainly limited to things that you mentioned such as come,kennel, and load plus trash breaking etc. The above behaviors have very little to do with developing a consistent game catching dog. IMO those virtues come from the breeding pen and are named "natural instinct", "intelligence" and "desire or drive". There is no substitute for either one and neither can be greatly increased by the best of trainers. The best that we can do is recognize, appreciate, attempt to reproduce these qualities when we are fortunate enough to have an individual the has them in a high and balanced degree. Of course hunting the hair off of a dog will reveal and develop the skills and talents that he was born with.