!!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

[Dan Edwards]

There is also a lot of difference between field trial RACES and a bobcat race!!!

Again I'm quite sure we are all aware of this fact. I prolly drug more field trial "tracks" before I was 13 years old than everybody on this board combined. I can assure you there are no "tracks".

[ethertonee]

Dan I think that what you are doing is very interesting and it is different for us to think about hear in the US where hunting rights for the most part haven't been taken away as they have in Europe and hunting with this style of dog is the only way people can hunt. They say it is poaching and illegal but quite common I have no idea I have just read about it. I guess that the laws are not as strict, poaching is more like a speeding ticket or so if you get caught. There are many web sights and pages of info on this topic. They use their dogs to catch game and fast since they are trespassing. I think they use more of the sight hounds though and less of the trail hounds from what I have read. I would guess there are people that have crossed them to trail more as well. I guess what I am getting at is have you tried to make contact with any one from over seas say Ireland or England to get an input form people that are already doing this. The common people over there have been doing this for centuries because before hunting was banned the land was controlled by the rich and they had to do the same thing to hunt. I can see you know a lot about dogs and have a good idea about what traits you are looking for i was just may be trying to help you speed up the process or help you to get in put form someone that may already be doing what you are looking to do. I know the process if a big part of the fun though as it gives us something to think about and ponder. I wish you the best and would like to thank you for taking the time to share this process with us. Best of luck to you.

Ed Etherton

[Dan McDonough]

Yes, I've talked with many people from the UK. It was Andrew Edwards' DVD series called Fox Hunting with Lurchers where I first laid eyes on the process, the way the dogs worked rather than a man's style of handling. Reading the colorful books of Plummer and others gave me all of the mental pictures and expectations of what is possible with different styles of handling and types of dogs. It's not really the secretive nature of the old European poachers that attracted me to this style of dog as much as the dog's ability to work out complex problems and the physical ability to take advantages away from game.

So far I have been impressed enough with them to keep them. If at some point I think that they aren't making things happen faster or more efficiently, out they go. I have several other projects along the same lines that I'm interested in so I'm only tied to the lurchers by my current admiration but so far so good.

[tradslam]

"Any body have examples of a dog using a tool" I have a cur that can open the kennel door, have another one that opens the screen door to the house and un screws the sprinklers in the yard and hides them. Yea they are some hellions.

[pegleg]

Interesting reading. Greyhounds are supposed to be the fastest breed over their distance. But I've seen some outrun by dogs that didn't have any sighthound in them and out run at distance more often. Its been awhile since I had any sighthound. But I wonder if desire to catch might not play a bigger role then we think. I had a few gamey Fox terrier looking dogs that caught all kinds of things in front of the big dogs. Their speed was pretty good but their agility and accuracy was what put them in front most of the time. I don't even know if you could find real gamey terrier like that anymore. It would be a shame if they've been lost to.

[Dan McDonough]

Tradslam- Sounds like you've got some smart ones.

Pegleg- I think your on track there. Finding that type of terrier is pretty easy. There's a boatload of jagdterriers out there. Some of them hav.e a screw loose but the ones that don't and also have normal sized legs on them are just what you described if raised right. I have a jagdterrier x whippet that's crazy smart and quite a dog already at 5 1/2 months old. The whippet putthe legs on him and the jagd put the no quit determination in. He's a smart dog and I'm having a blast training him up. Here's a picture:

[Dan McDonough]

His name is Diesel. He's a good little dog and is about 17" and about 18# right now. I'm hoping he will get just a little bigger. I'm running him at just about everything while he's young. He's way to mouthy when I go away from the truck without him but he's learning and his brains are overcoming his mouth. I have no real complaints about him and he goes all day and then some. He can scramble through brush twice as fast as a larger dog and is tougher than nails. He's doing more at 5 1/2 motnhs old than most dogs but that's par for course with the jagd in the mix. His adult teeth are about 1/3 of the way in so I'm taking it easy on him until they are most of the way in. He's got the typical oversized teeth of the jagdterrier and looks more like a coyote when he opens his mouth. He's way tougher than a whippet and way faster than a standard jagdterrier which are way faster than they should be already.

For those of you that are familiar with the popular beddy whippet crosses of the UK, he's a lot like that but with a few upgrades from the jagdterrier that the Bedlington does not have. He and his littermates are the only dogs of this cross that I can find anywhere in the world. For those of you that will automatically think, if that's the only cross of it's kind there must be a reason why there aren't more, there are many reasons why but none of them have to do with utility. I won't go into it all here but from what I've seen so far, it's a shame there aren't a lot more.

[Dan McDonough]

7 weeks old yesterday. Today is the start of the next stage and I'll be spending two hours each day just sitting with the pups and playing with them. It's not going to be easy all of the time but I'm committed and my daughter won't mind helping me with it. It would be easy if I only had two pups but at this time I have 8 left so it's my responsibility to get them in the right environment. I'll teach them simple commands and they will learn how to learn until they are 11 weeks old.

[Dan McDonough]

I just wanted to throw it out there that at nearly 8 weeks old, these pups are superstars. I don't have a dud in the pen when it comes to brains and ease of training. Every one of them has a good attitude and every one of them takes mere minutes to get to do something new. I only have one dud and it has nothing to do with the pup mentally. The small dark muzzled pup in the middle of the above picture has a bad overbite. She's much smaller than the others and really isn't competing well at the food dish but she is always trying to show the other pups up. Normally I would cull her out completely but I've decided to give her away as a pet. She's quite a cool little lady and she's going to make a family very happy.

By the way. Part 2 is likely to be in the works and should have its foundations laid by summer. It's a teaser, I know but, I'm very close to locking in on a pivotal ingredient and I'm pretty excited about it. I won't go into any details except to say that it's close to beginning but I still have to make some decisions but they will, as always, be dictated by the dog flesh. If you barrel ahead with a plan and ignore the characteristics of what your dealing with (in terms of the dogs' abilities) along the way, you'll fall short of what could have been nearly all of the time. If anything, I'm careful.

[24Vford]

Any update on your ultimate bobcat dog?

[Dan McDonough]

All initial puppy training is done as the pups are past the 4 month mark. I am simply walking, teaching obedience and exposing them to small game. They are absolutely nuts to catch anything right now so I'm having to keep a balance between getting them enough game to chase without over matching them. I'm just plodding along and having fun like usual. I may start reporting again when they get on to bigger game.

[24Vford]

I've read online about people crossing sight hounds with border collies but everything I read is over in the UK don't seem to find much here in the US on them. Seem like quite the game catching cross.

[Dan McDonough]

That's what got me interested in the first place. I often tell people to read Rogues and Running Dogs by, Brian Plummer. That book gives good examples of what is possible. Another great resource for those who like to see it in action is a set of videos (4 parts) done by Andrew Edwards and called Fox Hunting with Lurchers. I have parts 1 and 4 and I think that if someone wanted to economize and only pay for one I recommend video #4. It shows lurchers hunting up, jumping and running down red fox. They do a very impressive job to say the least. It was this video that pushed me over the edge. To be fair, on some of the races in this video, he ran one trailhound with them and that dog did a very good job keeping up with the lurchers I thought. It was the lurchers that did the catching though. Up to this point I had thought the lurchers were lacking in nose but his dogs proved me wrong without a doubt. After seeing those videos it was just a matter of time for me.

To this day I still can't imagine why there aren't loads of lurchers in the USA. So far as I've seen they are very loyal, extremely athletic, nearly as smart as a BC, are excellent winders and some are good track dogs. With a little tweaking I think it will be easy to add treeing because all of mine so far are good natural locators.

I've already got one that is a half Stag and half July that is a good track dog and trees acceptably well to boot. He's just not as biddable as the collie crosses and the alertness of the collies helps them dominate the catch...the right collie any how. I would recommend a good cattle bred BC that trees.

I'll have a batch of them later this year if your interested in trying one and seeing what I'm talking about. I have only been keeping 2 out of each litter.

[24Vford]

I read gazehounds an coursing an it got me interested in them. In the book he talks of some crosses he made to running hounds for running coyotes an running cold bloods with running hounds after coyotes. I run my half BMC half jukebox bred Mt cur on about anything he can tree. I'm an equal opportunity hunter when I go to the woods but mainly coon an squirrel. I will take a pup from your next breeding. Is it going to be the same cross you just made?

[24Vford]

I read gazehounds an coursing an it got me interested in them. In the book he talks of some crosses he made to running hounds for running coyotes an running cold bloods with running hounds after coyotes. I run my half BMC half jukebox bred Mt cur on about anything he can tree. I'm an equal opportunity hunter when I go to the woods but mainly coon an squirrel. I will take a pup from your next breeding. Is it going to be the same cross you just made?