Lion hound training

[david]

So now you have a lot to think about and questions to ask yourself (these will be similar to the questions you need to ask yourself on every lion experience):

What is it about this spot that made the coon want to be here?

Is it the same things that would make off game want to be here, or is this spot better for coon than other animals?

Is there a visible trail? Why? If a fence, does the trail go under the fence? Or do most of the trail users jump the fence? Any hair on the barbed wire? What is it from?

Is there anything about this spot, the time, the weather, the context, that could help me know what my dogs were doing without having seen the coon?

If I had not seen that coon and he left the road just before I got there...

Would my dogs have been on the road hunting?

If they were and they wound up on that scent, what would I have been thinking?

Probably, would have been wondering what animal it was, so...

Is there anything about the way they started that track that might be different than the way they start off game?

What was their body language?

How long before this dog opened? How long before that dog opened? How did they sound at first? How did they sound at each stage of the track?

If the track was a line, what kind of line would it be?

How did the track end? Did the dogs go quiet for a moment? Or slam into the tree?

How did the tree develop? Does either dog have a locate bark? Could I tell when they were looking up before the locate bark?

If I did not know what this was, at what point could I predict it was a coon? And why?

Would I have thought it was off game until they treed?

If so, what can I learn about how long to wait before calling them off when I think it might be off game?

What was the puppy doing? Was he engaged? Is he showing me he is ready for this now?

Learn all you can about this experience.

I think most good houndsmen probably have somewhat of an addictive set of genes. You might find your new addiction cutting in pretty badly on the old one when you realize the old one is cutting in to the new one.

Montana Lions, beware.

Plott1357 is Coming for you!

[Plott1357]

It was a deer trail or a coon highway. My black and tan has a really good cold nosed so she opened first just like she always has and then the plott they both went quiet for a bit and both started treeing. When I got there the plott was kinda wandering around barking tree but then he put his feet on the tree an treed hard he has the biggest bombing voice I have ever heard. The pup was kinda just wandering around he started out good. I'm thinking mabey hold him off until he's more mature. Or mabey do some drags with him idk

[david]

The pup was kinda just wandering around he started out good. I'm thinking mabey hold him off until he's more mature. ...

That was an excellent thing to say!! Make sure you end that sentence right there.

[Plott1357]

OK I'll stop trying so hard with him thanks I wish I could post some pics. Now should I leave him tied up for awhile or let him run with the other dogs when I exersise them and just let them run off or should I keep him tied up on the box

[david]

Let him have fun when there is fun to be had. But hunting is in the "work" category. Don't allow him to just mill around. If he does that, put him in the box or leave him home for a few weeks or months and try again later. If that pup never has another drag his whole life, he will be none the worse for it.

Of the top hunters I have hunted with, the number of pups they started with drags would be right around zero.

They hunt their pups when the pup is old enough to get down to business, and I don't mean monkey business.

A lot of bear hunters I have known demand early starting pups. But Some cat hunters I have known are willing to wait well past the one year mark if they like some things about the pup. You already have a lot invested in him. Wait.

[Plott1357]

Interesting. He starts good just doesn't finish worth a crap I'll just keep him on the box then one thing I haven't done with him that I might try tell me if I'm wrong is let a caged coon go just him by himself give the coon a min and let him go. If thats not a good idea tell me. Or I can just leave him on the box

[david]

You do what you want to do.

You learn by trial and error, and I think most of us have ruined a dog or two by error.
Your learning is probably more important than his.

If you have an idea and want to try it, I guess you will never know if it works unless you try it.

If I had him he would not see or smell a coon or any other dangerous game for awhile. If you can hook him up with a brush pile and some rabbits and he likes to chase them, that is what I would do if you feel like you have to give him some game. Nothing serious. He won't catch one. You don't need to shoot one. Just let him play around and have fun to his hearts content. He will learn some things about trailing.

If he is not interested in them, you have your answer. Wait.

Down south, I saw small pens designed for starting fox hound pups on rabbits. The non threatening benefits are known.

[ethertonee]

Hey plott1357. You have been given great advice hear. I am no expert and don't claim to know much. I am just about 2 years ahead of you in this whole process. Take $70 go to the top of the page click on double-u hound supplies. Buddy the guy that runs this sight owns that supply store and supports your right more then you know. Buy walk with wick vol. 1 and 2. Read them and reread them. Every question you have would be answered multiple times. It is a great way to pass the time when you can't hunt. When you have a question refer to the book. It might not be what you want to hear but it is the truth. Then when you have a question with some deep thought these guys will help you more they you will ever know. They have all given you good advice for how they hunt and what they do. Read what they say on each of these forums even if you don't plan on hunting that species at all you will still learn a lot from them. If you don't read what they asked you to read and keep asking the questions they have taken time to answer 5 or more times they will slowly start to ignore you. Except for a couple of guys that are very patient. Go hunting a lot and work hard, ask good questions. These guys are the best but respect there time and knowledge. The most important thing is to have fun.

Oh and bye the way when they ask you not to post things that most of us don't have an objection to but that are illegal, DO IT. Barn cats and drinking and driving. We could all probably loose some ground if the anties or wardens use our info the wrong way. If you must post it go to the members only section.

Sorry if I am a little negative and you are a new guy with a ton of enthusiasm. I don't want to dampen that at all just respect what most of these guys have done for us all.

Ed Etherton

[david]

Ed, thank you. You gave some awesome advice about the books and the law.

I have a son who does not learn stuff by reading about it. He learns by watching or by doing. I don't think Walk With Wick or most any book would be very life changing for my son. I have a lot of respect for Plott1357 because he is working hard. I don't know if he is like my son but he kind of reminds me of him. I have had some of the same feelings you expressed, but I have had them also toward someone I love more than the whole world. I wish I had some of his gifts.

Keep on keeping on.

[ethertonee]

David I didn't mean any disrespect to him or his enthusiasm and you are by far a very patient person and I love to read everything you say on every topic. Even if I don't agree with it just reading it and not thinking about it you speak the truth and that means more then politicking me. I usually see you are correct, just like reading Wick's info. Don't get a big head lol. You are very forthcoming and an excellent teacher. I am a very visual learner as well. I have spent more time in school then I would care to ever admit. For my job I have to still spend time in a class room which isn't good I should be hunting. I can do most any construction work with confidence and often times have to help others that are stuck and I have never taken a construction class I just went to work with my dad every summer from age 5 to 22. I got a 4 year degree and didn't open books much because I went to class and payed attention and asked lots of questions. I then read the books. You may suggest this to help your son unless they are going to quizz you then you will have to read it twice. Goes to show if you are a visual learner you need to hunt more like multiple people have suggested. That being said that is why I told him to keep referring to the book because if you don't learn well from a book you have to go back and read it multiple times to retain much. If you are an average person you only retain about 15 percent of the info you read after 1 year. 25 percent if you write it 50 percent if you put your hands on it. Do all 3 and you get the point. These are not exact figures because I only read the info. I know he is very interested and I should have thought more before I put a negative tone to what I said. A lot of others on hear are not patient like you they are mor like my father who told me once and I better get it. They have a lot of good info as well and I was trying to get him to see that. If I had a question on specifics I would and will ask but just try to think about it like you have very politely suggested. I will shut up and stay away from high jacking this post now as I have gained a lot from it as well.

Thanks again
Ed Etherton

[david]

Great post. Half the battle of understanding bobcat hunting and bobcat dogs is understanding ourselves. "Know thyself".
Thanks for the suggestions.

What I like about Plott1357 is he always has a new adventure. Not talking about a week ago...talking about today or yesterday. That tells me something important.

[Plott1357]

Well here's another adventure for ya. I was exercising my dogs because I was in eastern my this weekend and was driving up the Forrest service rd when a big Ol bear ran across the rd. I slammed on the breaks and tried to get my dogs undercontroll I yelled and screamed nope they weren't stopping off they went the one year olds and the 6 month old down into the steepest thickest stuff around they were hootin and hollering down that canyon then what do u know. I heard that six month old open up he was trying to keep up with the older dogs but having a hard time doin it. But every time his feet hit the ground he was barking. He's never done that before. I tried to cut them off at the next rd but no luck so I called fish and game and let them know what happened so a warden didn't drive by and think I did it on purpose.(its illegal to hunt bears in mt and its bear season) those dogs ran 4.7 miles. They lost the pup somewhere at mile 2. Couldn't find him for a but but he eventually came up the rd. The older dogs would go quiet then open back up then quiet then open and I know it wasent a deer because the GPS was showing there lines right on top of each other and rusty usually goes off and does somthin else at about 200 yards if its a deer. Well anyways after about 2 hours they shut up rusty came back to the truck and Dixie was at the bottom of a canyon treed. I walked all the way down there to see her curled up in the middle of an Old logging rd to tired to even get up. She walked for a little ways then layed back down it was getting dark so I threw her over my shoulders and packed her ass 1.3 miles up to the rd. Couldn't be mad at um. They ran there best and they all did well. But let me tell u what I about wanted to curl up in that dog box too.

[rockytrails]

I agree with the advice on here. One thing that is hard to realize is that we only pick out parts of that advice depending on how far we are advanced in our endeavors. Some just doesn't seem to fit our minds until we get to different stages. Example would be reading your dogs as David said. That is great advice for me too. 15 years ago it may not have been important to me. I remember an Alaska moose hunt years ago. I had read that if you're bow hunting to go later "after the grasses layer over from freeze". We'll I could care less if the grass was layer over, until I got there and the grass was 5 feet tall and no way to shoot my bow through it. Good thing I was at least smart enough to take a rifle too.

[Goose]

I'm no lion Hunter or superb dog trainer, everything that's been posted on here is sound advice, sounds like you are well on your way down the right road, some advice id like to add, you say your two older dogs already know what's going on and if you have the game, the place, and the time then I'd start taking the older dogs one at a time right by themselves at least once a week and coon hunt them, not saying your dogs are doing it but by steadily hunting them together one might start leaning on the other and you not realize it, by hunting them alone your challenging them to figure things out on their own and it more that likely will really help them out when they are hunted together, they will each develop their own sense to run a track and pick up loses and really line it out and not learn to lean on their partner in something they may lack, you've already mentioned your B&T has a colder nose than the other, it very well could be and you know your dogs way better than I do but it could be your other dog isn't having the opportunity to get the strike, the Walk With Wick books were mentioned, I've ordered both of them and have read them front to back several times, I'm no coon Hunter but I've learned a lot and it has showed in my dogs by reading them, another thing that was mentions is reading all these different sections, even though it may not be your game of choice but you might could learn something from them or put your own spin on things and if not then your not out of anything but the time you took reading it. If you really want to get deep in it, keep you a journal of each outing with your dogs, record what time of year it is, what type of terrain, the time of day, temp, wind direction, barometric pressure, the moon phase, you do this enough and you'll eventually be able to go back and read accounts from previous outings and you will start to see similar occurrences, whether they are the good or the bad, and will help you understand why your dogs are doing certain things. Another thing you can do is Mark trees or areas where you get a strike at or visual sightings of game in your garmin, again you will start to see similar patterns in the game and will eventually make you much smarter about the game and in return will make you a better Hunter.

[pegleg]

Its nice not only does David have experience and insight his sense of humour is intact as well.