!!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

[24Vford]

Dan have you looked in to Hanging Tree Cowdogs?

[Dan McDonough]

Dutch wrote about the stag/running hound cross a fair amount but at least from the articles I read he only commented on them with regard to coyotes. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but I can't remember reading anything about how those dogs operated on other game.

I've only have experience with Bandit (Stag x July) and he's quite a nice dog. What Dutch said about the crosses speed was right on. Bandit is not quite as fast as a good Stag but he's not much slower either and his endurance is way above any Stag I've seen. In fact, his endurance is better than the first cross BC Lurchers. He runs a track semi silent but he does open once in a while on a cold track and he's very open after the jump. Bandit trees reasonably well though I do not know if Bandit will stay treed for a long time because I've always been able to get to his trees and I've not had him hunting in big country. The cat hunting I get to do these days is local and more like coon hunting in farm country. Lucky for me there's a fairly decent population of cats around home or I wouldn't get to go at all. Also, because of how much hunting I was doing a few years ago I know where most of the cats like to hang out around here so I don't have to try very hard to find a cat to run. It doesn't sound very romantic but it allows me to keep at this.

I've been learning a little about the Hanging Tree dogs but I'm not all that convinced that they would be better for my tastes in a herding dog than a good line of cattle bred BC's. Last month I bought three Alexander bred BC's. I traded one for second pick pup out of a future litter. The guy I traded her to is quite a breeder/trainer and is the same man that provided Gem (BC) for the making of Tommy and Vicki. I have the other two here. One female named Polly is a natural tree dog and Maggie is the younger of the three (19 months). Right now I'm heavily in favor of using Polly for my next litter.

I'm planning on breeding Polly (BC) to Duce (Stag) to make another litter of first cross Collie Lurchers. Both Duce and Polly are both natural tree dogs and it's my opinion that in the long term I'm going to be happier if I keep all dogs involved in the final and future product being tree dogs. It makes this whole project likely to take a lot longer to get to the point where I'm doing the crosses with hounds. Someday I'll get to that Ultimate Bobcat Dog but it won't be very good if I settle for any dogs that aren't natural tree dogs. The more I work with Polly (BC) the more I think that she is the BC that I've been looking for. I may find one that is better yet someday but she's ticking all of the boxes right now.

The next cross won't be another 3/4 Stag, 1/4 BC breeding like the last litter. It will be the Duce x Polly breeding. They won't be quite as fast as the 3/4 bred pups but I should get some real tree dogs out off that cross. I should remind everyone not familiar with sighthounds that a first cross Lurcher that is not as fast as a second cross (3/4 Stag, 1/4 BC) is still a great deal faster than nearly any tree hound alive. I'm splitting hairs here when it comes to speed and where bobcats are concerned. If we were talking about running Jackrabbits (Hares) it would be a different set of choices all together.

If I were evaluating these dogs with the standards laid out in David Peightal's book, Bobcat Dog, they would be so over the top for speed when compared to a running bobcat that it would seem like overkill. The thing is, the more time a dog can take away from a bobcat the less time a bobcat has to screw with the dog. In hounds this ability is the rare thing that keeps most people spending more of their life looking for a great bobcat dog than actually hunting with one. There is a certain style of nose that can handle those speeds and it's more of a winding, bird dog type of nose. I've watched Duce (Stag), Mikey (Whippet), Vicki (first cross Collie Lurcher) wind into animals and locate them in tight brush at great speed (for the conditions) and catch better and quicker than anything I've ever seen before. This happens way more often than I've ever seen a hound be able to do. This is due to the style of nose they possess.

Anyhow, that's enough rambling for today. I haven't been on here for a while so I thought I would get some of my thoughts written down. I use these threads to look back on what I've done occationally.

I'm going to add one more thing to this. Bandit, the Stag x July cross dog I'm hunting, is already what most folks that hunt cats hard are looking for. He's closer to the final product than anything else I have. I'm always looking for the one man, one dog type of bobcat dog and most folks don't actually hunt that way. If I were doing this for money and to just move forward a couple of steps in the right direction, he and his kind would be an easy direction to take. There is an angle on that I have been thinking about for a while though. I may have something more to say on this at a later date but it won't be until I am back in the woods full time.

[24Vford]

You are correct Dutch mainly just touched on having using his crosses on coyotes. I myself am only slightly interested in chasing coyotes with my dogs I'm more of a treedog type guy. I do however like using them on whatever is avalible been treeing quite a few groundhogs this year with my male.

The first cross lurcher BC would still have pretty good wheels I'm sure I've been around a few BC an they were very quick and sharp as a tack. The hunting style of these first crosses more like a cur dog than hound? Seems to me they would be using all of their sense rather than just their nose with having the BC blood in them.

[Dan McDonough]

Yes, all senses to the max. That's the interesting thing about the sighthound influence, they are definitely awake to the world, not that the BC side isn't magnifying that even more.

We all knew a kid in school that just didn't miss a beat. That same kid likely became the valedictorian of your class. That's a lurcher! The lurcher couldn't be the lurcher mentally, without the border collie and the it could not be the lurcher physically without the sighthound. Some will argue that lurchers are any sighthound crossed with any working or sporting breed but they would still just simply be curs if that were the case. It is the herding breeds and more specifically the Border Collie, that distinguished the lurcher from being just another cur. That is the definition of exceptional.

I always thought that it would be a good idea to cross a really good mtn. cur with a stag or greyhound. It would certainly push the curs to another level. I've never seen the like but I sure would like to.

[Cowboyvon]

I think the BC along with I believe the Doberman crossed on a sight hound doesn't affect the double suspension that gives a true sighthound the speed.. I've had some sight hounds in the past and really appreciate the good ones desire to catch... and for the most part pleasant dogs to be around.. I've had some crossed up with pit bull, dogo, pointer... had a litter of pups one time out of a 1/2 Australian shepherd and 1/2 sight hound that was 1/4 pit and 1/4 stag and half hot blood .... the bitch went crazy and killed all the pups except one and I had already committed to a guy that he could have one... heard later on that he made a heck of a nice varmint dog .. but unfortunately got killed. Been wanting one ever since... sure do hear good things about the brain the BC puts into them

[Leapordcur1]

Sure hope this is a JOKE

[Dan McDonough]

That's an odd first post. Maybe you could try being more specific and see where it gets you.

[24Vford]

Read Rouges an Running Dogs. Great book loved it. I'm amazed at what they could do with those dogs. I'm surprised they are not more popular here in the states.
I'm would guess it's a function thing is a BC stag cross gonna do a better job than my current on coon an squirrel? I'm not sure it would. Will it be better on a hot coon that is trying it's best to make it across a cut corn field I have no doubt with the speed it will smoke across open country. I am eager to try one though an see how it performs.

[Dan Edwards]

24Vford,

Had some 1/4 walker, 1/4 cur, 1/2 field trial grey one time. Had a lot of fun with them dogs.

[Dan McDonough]

24Vford- That Plummer sure can write and I'll bet he's gotten more people into lurchers than any man alive. There's a chapter in Plummer's book, "Merle, the Start of s Dynasty" that has a story that put me over the top. If you get a chance to read that I highly recommend it. It's chapter 9 and it's called The Trouble with Phathom or something close to that. That one chapter tops everything in Rogues and Running Dogs.

I feel the same about the lack of them in the states but I think it has more to do with the tree than anything else. With the right mix they are quite a bit better than nearly all of the mtn. curs I've hunted with. I do have a couple of exceptions I can think of though. One thing I will say. If someone did a similar program with a Stag, BC and Mtn. Cur I wouldn't just be interested, I may even be envious.

I'm kind of heading in that direction though. Once I get the tree in the first cross, look out!

[Jimmy Lee]

Dan didn't you once run leopard curs on cats and also black and tans if so what was the problem?

[Dan McDonough]

Jimmy Lee- Just Leopards on bobcats. No problem. It's just that I've seen other dogs of other breeds do things that I think could add a few more ways to catch bobcats faster than any hound or cur I've seen in some circumstances. I don't know of anything that can replace a good old hound on a rotten day+ old track but they're not all rotten, old tracks. Also, winding into an area that is likely to hold a cat done way faster with the type of dog I'm fooling around with.

I'm also going to cross the lurchers with a leopard at some point and see what happens. I like to keep things exciting and moving forward. I have my pack of leopards and they are still my best bet for catching lots of cats. If all of this doesn't make for a bigger total at the end of a season than they're out of here but so far so good.

By the way, I'm also the guy that can't sit in a tree stand for deer season, I just have to get up and move around but I usually fill my tags pretty early. Also, I'm not so antsy that I can't save one tag for gun season. I hope that gives you some insight into my way of having fun and how I do things.

[Jimmy Lee]

Dan i don't know anyone who has made more crosses with hounds,curs,running dogs,bird dogs,sight hounds,farm Shepard's ,Airedales than myself.I did it for some of the same reasons but also to study traits and how their carried.you have your work cut out for ya.I found out a lot from it but I spent a lot of years on researching also.

[Dan McDonough]

Your comments and critiques are more than welcome. I'm fairly altruistic when it comes to what I've found and seen though it's not always easy to tell people what I've seen and felt in a way that's easy to understand. I seem to generate a bit of controversy with these threads which is a combination of the wacky nature of dog people and a variety of things that keep me from being the perfect writer. I'll be looking forward to anything you might want to add.

[barksalot]

Dan i don't know anyone who has made more crosses with hounds,curs,running dogs,bird dogs,sight hounds,farm Shepard's ,Airedales than myself.I did it for some of the same reasons but also to study traits and how their carried.you have your work cut out for ya.I found out a lot from it but I spent a lot of years on researching also.

Jimmy Lee: Sounds like a lot of experiences. What did you learn? What conclusions did you come to? Would you share some of the fruit of your labors here?