Serious Question!

[not color blind]

. His response was "it don't really matter as long as I don't see it."
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[Andyva]

Some things I have seen. Rabbit beagles, that had been running rabbits all morning, good tracking conditions, completely surrounding a rabbit in a briar patch. They just cn't smell him, they smell his tracks all in there from the night before. As long as he sets still, not a peep. As soon as he moves just a little, they all roar and go running out of there with their heads up. Can a rabbit hold his scent?

I remeber hunting with some squirrel dogs I had. One in particular would tree layups good. It was a cold morning and nothing was moving. I was coming out of the woods and saw a fox squirrel setting on a limb like he was part of it. I thought that I was going to get to shoot something out to my dogs, I wasn't in the habit of shooting out stuff they didn't tree. They worked all under that tree and the squirrel never moved. They went on off, I walked down there and threw a rock and made that squirrel jump up to the next limb and got the dogs, who didn't see me throw a rock, to walk back past there. They went to treeing immediately. It would seem that they couldn't smell him until he moved.

Calling in fox with an electric caller to start a pup on fox. Fox coming to the fox pup in distress usually are bristled up looking for a fight. They have their hair puffed up and they stop and pee on every little bush. When they get in and you hit them with a light and start unsnapping dogs, it takes the wind out of their sails and they leave in a hurry. Time after time, until I figured out to watch where he goes and start walking the dog on his track the way he went, I would get a backtrack on that deal.

I believe the way they hold their hair impacts how much body scent an animal gives off. There is foot scent and body scent. Changing from foot scent to body scent probably isn't as hard to do as going the other way.

[macedonia mule man]

Had a b/t colored running walker male that could run anything pretty good. I watched him running a deer through some wide open huge pine timber with hardly any ground cover. In the timber he ran with his head in the wind never missing a beat and on the right corse because I had watched the deer travel about 200 yds through the woods to a wood road about 12 food wide. The deers jumped 3/4 of road and right back in woods on other side. When the dog reached the road he geared down, dropped his head to the ground and started walking across the road switching and barking like a beagle on a rabbit till he went in timber on other side. Then right back to head up winding. I'm sure he could have still ran a head up winding style across a 12 food woods road. Dogs do funny things but I guess that was his style.

[twist]

You say you have this happen (way to often)? If this is the case I'd try another type or style of cat dog. jmo Andy

[Bon Plott]

Well I've followed these posts and ones like it and can relate. Snow is too dry, snow is too wet,too many pine needles, glare ice, barometric pressures not right. But there really is only one logical explanation, cat hits the mayday button and Scotty beams them up

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[Dan Edwards]

I've noticed it doesn't take much for a dog to lose it concentration on what it's doing and just wonders off for another adventure. Who knows for sure.

So much this. Not to mention getting overly excited and really screwing things up. Plus a dog can get awful hot at times and not be able to hardly carry on. Dogs that are too fresh will really make a mess of things or dogs that are just overly exhausted. The too fresh is usually the cause with most though.

[dwalton]

Until the dogs can talk or I can track a track by smell,all that I know about scent is just a theory, but it is based on over 50 years running hounds,a lot of conversation with knowledgeable hunters and thousand of miles hiking behind a good bunch of hounds on tracks in the snow and bare ground. I have seen bobcat that have been frighten do something in snow and bare ground to hold scent[ which can't be done] or change what they smell like. One of the hardest looses that a hound can make is when a cat hits a road and runs down it, squats or dodges to one side with the dogs running past then coming back to pick the track up. I think when a dog has a track up and running them makes a loose they are looking for a hot track that smells as good as what they had going by the time they find the track it is no longer the hot track and the dogs will walk over it looking for the jumped track. I have seen this several times that dogs that are looking for that hot track smell where the cat went and go on and an older more experience dog come along behind them and take the track. Also to much speed on a track with very competitive dogs will cause a lot of looses from over running the track. Sometime over running a track several hundred yards. A slower dog that stick close to a track will make less looses and catch more bobcats. Speed only helps when they have the track. I don't know what is going for you but here is something to think about. Good luck Dewey

[al baldwin]

[quote="dwalton"I think when a dog has a track up and running them makes a loose they are looking for a hot track that smells as good as what they had going by the time they find the track it is no longer the hot track and the dogs will walk over it looking for the jumped track. I have seen this several times that dogs that are looking for that hot track smell where the cat went and go on and an older more experience dog come along behind them and take the track. Good luck Dewey[/quote] Dewey, never heard anyone explain it like that. Have to compliment you, had to read twice, makes very good sense. Al

[johnadamhunter]

That makes a lot of sense, Dewey.


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[pegleg]

Dewey said it clearer then I was able. But he also brought up speed which I admit is something I've wondered about. For my area bobcat tracks are the most variable on a regular basis through out the Chase. Its not unusual for it to speed up slow down several times. Either scent, tricks, conditions or terrain causes this. Having hunted foxhounds in other areas and hunting with a friend using them on lion in Mexico. They don't seem prone to slowing down and working more methodically. In this way they resemble some other types of hound But continue to hunt out instead of falling treed or sticking to the last hot spot. I realize no hounds are perfect and don't intend to start a argument or my dogs best debate. And maybe Dewey will chime in here. But while it's kind of insinuated the foxhound cross dogs are a improvement because of increased track speed I've always wondered if that was true or even a consideration in the original breeders mind. My experience is similar to deweys that a calmer more intelligent dog will work through these track variations better then a frantically searching type dog. So I'm guessing the real reason the foxhound were used was to give some forward momentum to sticky type hounds with out over exciting them.

[dhostetler]

What Dewey is describing I believe is stuff that happens running in heavy brush. I have never run in the south so I don't know how that compares to conditions on the coastal range but it surely can not be worse. In my opinion hounds losing a jumped bobcat should be rare. Don't ever be satisfied with losing game because other hound guys in the area have the same issues. There are hound guys in all areas that say how hard it is to catch bobcats but in all those areas there are hounds that have a very high percentage catch rate. It takes a lot of culling and desire to get to that point.

[pegleg]

The question isn't so much about loosing game. Its about the dogs traits mostly. Thick cover is thick where ever it maybe. Anyway I posted my question as clearly as I'm able tonight I'll reread it tomorrow and see if it can be clarified anyway.

[dwalton]

With all breeds you can get dogs within that breed that has different traits. That's the key even with fox hound crosses you want a dog with brains and the ability to trail. How a dog works a track will catch you more game than speed. With running dogs you get conformation which means a dog that will hold up and be tough. With any dog on bobcats you want a quite, settle dog that can run but knows how to move a track. There are running dogs that have what you want and there are some that don't. Dewey

[dhostetler]

Though I do not believe in the theory of cats being able to throw or hold there scent I do believe an animal that freezes in place and doesn't move does not emit much scent. I can very well see how in brushy country a cat doing a lot of tight running and then freezing in the middle of it could seem like it is holding its scent. While Bear hunting I have seen numerous times going down a deadend road without a peep and turning around and getting a red hot strike on the way out on a bear that got spooked out by the truck or atv. In my area it is not unusual for a lion treed in the morning to stay in the tree all day. I have several times run lions in the afternoon that someone else treed in the morning, I would turn the dogs loose at the original turnout and run the track to the tree on the expectation that the lion was out and would provide a fresh race. The several times I had the lion still in the tree hours after initially treeing my dogs had serious locating issues. With the way most of my hounds tree I think they primarily scent tree on body scent and it appears to me that something hanging out sleeping in a tree for hours just doesn't emit much scent.

[dwalton]

Bobcat can't withhold their scent I agree BUT let me tell you a few times that happen that make me script my head. We were in the coast range in good hunting conditions coming down around a corner a young bobcat ran across the road. turning the dogs out walking them up to where the cat cross no tail given or any reaction that they could smell the cat?? In the Cascades hunting snow about 30 degrees perfect conditions already tree a cat earlier in the day. Got a second cat up and jumped hard running cat I am sure that it been ran before. The dogs were coming up to a road I pulled up to about 50 yards from where I thought it would cross and stopped. Tim had started hunting with me to learn about bobcat hunting. I sat in the rig to watch while he jumped out and ran up the road to watch the cat cross. The dogs came across the road right at time and cast across looking for the track. The bobcat popped out of the culvert after the dogs crossed the road and walked right back the way it came within a few feet of Tim. Tim yelled for the dogs to come back while the cat was a few feet from him. The cat look up and took off. The dogs came flying back within seconds, no one could smell the cat, we walked the dogs down it tracks for a 1/4 of a mile and the finally gave tail and started cold trailing the cat. The last example was in Northeastern California in a foot of fresh snow probably just above 0 degrees coming out after catch three bobcats that day one run across the road right in front of us. Tail gating the dogs inkling the track out several hundred yards not getting a tail wag or any sign that they could smell a cat. Two dogs in that bunch if they can get any scent they will sight run a tract that most dogs can't trail but no one gave any reaction to the bobcat. Everyone of these times I had people with me that seen it happen no one could give a reason why it happen. I have seen through the years this happening several times for lack of knowing what went on I call it bobcats withholding their scent[ which is impossible]. Just something to think about. Dewey