Dry Ground Dog Characteristics

[funstuff]

So our weather has been not so snowy the last couple years and we are hunting in drier times more. So, my questions for those that are hunting mostly dirt is,

What are the main traits you seek?

I can see where a dog that slows down on a loss can help. A good sniffer, stamina, endurance, smarts, can think for itself.A dog that honors another, I dislike a dog that won't pack up until it "finds" the track for itself out of stubbornness. Dedication and perseverience and litany of others.

But there is a difference and would like to add those traits or dogs to my pack. So I'm educating myself.

What about size? Seems a lot pics I see of dry ground dogs are smaller and red in color, why is this? English breeding? Are there breeds more acclimated to drier ground? a strain within the breed that shows the characteristics?

I am still catching, just not as much in the dirt, which is to be expected. I am seeing the holes in my dogs abilities also. Those really shine in the tougher dry tracks. What I have are not culls, I have solid snow lion and cat dogs. They do catch a dry track, but they don't "shine" when doing so. Slowing down on these tracks is required also.

Any info would be helpful or a direction to someone who has these dogs that I can talk to about acquiring a pup or started dog. I'm not hung on a breed, but I don't enjoy feeding and working a not smart dog.

Have fun.

[pegleg]

Well it's kinda the samething. A dog needs to be able to find a track work it and catch game. I find that dogs that are naturally inclined to trail. Aren't very trashy or hard to break from it. Handle easy and have the smarts and ability to work the track as it comes do pretty well. If a dog hangs up on a track or gets to excited to work through a loss it's the same outcome in my mind. Dogs that tree everything from a loss to heavy scent or just to cover up their short comings sure don't work. Hounds that take off expecting to trip over game aren't very effective either. And honestly to a large extent "track speed" is a personal preferrence. I've seen slow dogs catch a lot of game in the dirt. Its not my favorite but over a dog that can't stay on the track because it's to busy trying to run it's what I would chose. But a smart level headed dog that works a track at whatever pace it can can is my choice. There's other traits that make hounds But they're more universal.
You mention size I don't believe it's a real factor so long as you stay near average hound size and when guys argue over 40lb dogs or 70lb dogs it's really more to do with the dog. If it's got a correct build the same drive and durability it's going to be splitting hairs.

[dwalton]

Great question? A good track dog can come in any size or color and we all have our own opinion. For me It is a dog that sticks to a track not running all over the country looking for a track, it can swing out if a loose is made, it is a easy going thinking dog. It is not a dog that barks twice at the same spot. It needs to be started and trained on bare ground, it seems to take a while for a snow dog to be any good on bare ground. It takes a pack that leap frogs a track past the dead spots all honoring each other. Catching lion or bobcats on dry ground conditions is a like connecting the dots they have scent here maybe 50 feet out or 200 hundred feet out before they smell it again. They have to be cat minded know where the cat should of gone and looking there. I like a dog that moves a track fast with his head up but will put it's head down and smell if it has to. A dog has to have it's head up to run a track for bobcats. If a dog has his head down taking a track for track a bobcat can trot all day ahead and the will gap not close. A dog can not bark off track or run wild looking like he is hunting hard but can't find it.A wild running dog is next to worthless except on a hot track. I have seen and know of packs of lion dogs [10 to 15dogs hunted together] that can take a track in dry ground conditions a couple of days old and run through the country as fast as most dogs can run a hot track they will just have spots that they loose the track but get out and find it again. Bobcat dog should be running a track also not pounding it track from track. One exception to size is a large dog or a dark colored dog most of the times will over heat quicker than smaller light color dog. The better condition a dog is in the better he can handle a tough track. There are no perfect dogs with everything you need in them[ I have seen some close] but I have seen packs put together that are really good and one wrong dog in there can ruin it for all of them. You can have just as good of dogs as you are willing to work for if you look long enough and are able to hunt all the time. Dewey

[funstuff]

Thanks for the replies.

The leap frog reference really put things into perspective for me. I'm running 3 dogs. I am seeing them move out for new scent after the loss. Not sure just 3 is enough. But, they are picking it up. Faster on lion than cat. That little scent thing with bobs slows em down too much right now.

I'll keep at it. They are getting better with all the practice they're getting right now, so I'm not giving up on em.

A couple more good dogs that work with the pack would be an advantage with the loss.

How many dogs are you guys running together in dry? Do you know where I might look to pick up a dry ground bred dog?

Thanks for the info. I'm seeing things that I saw, just didn't put into overall perspective. Thanks.

[dwalton]

I run 6 to 10 a day most of the time. Dry ground bred dog, now that opens a hole new can of worms??? I always thought it just took a dog hunted on dry ground to be a dry ground dog. Let's hear from some of you dry ground hunters? Maybe I can learn something here??? Good hunting Dewey PS Mark is't there something in the good book about lying?

[Mike Leonard]

I prefer to call it bare ground rather than dry ground because you never know exactly what the true ground condition is going to be until you get out there and put the dogs down on it.

I am only going to address this from a lion standpoint and not for bobcat. The scent of a lion and it qualities is so different from that of most bobcats I have hunted it isn't a fair to compare it.

Bobcats for the most part leave very little scent under most bare ground conditions unless you are in very high humidity areas with a lot of ground vegetation. It is very light and with smaller cats at times you would think they are leaving ghost tracks. Seldom do dogs other than the super dogs trail a bobcat under those conditions that is more than a few hours old. That being said many good cat hunters string up a lot of cats on the bare ground cuz they are cat savvy and also have spent year putting together the right dogs to get er done!

Lions on the other hand come in all shapes and sizes and some small subs and little females don't seem to leave a lot more scent than a big bobcat but they do leave more scent and lion scent is heavy and lays low and under proper conditions can be trailed on bare ground not just a few hours but a few days old. this doesn't mean you are going to catch very many of those 2 day old tracks but dogs will and can work them and at times when the dots line up you jump and catch the lion.

I tried for years to take all kinds of different scent hounds in all shapes and colors to come up with a consistent strain of hounds that could put it all together on bare ground and mostly in the southwest where most of the time when the ground is bare for any length of time it is pretty darn dry too.

I had some hit and miss success but never really felt I could depend to reproduce it on a steady basis. I even felt at times I had a pretty good bunch working and then I would get the opportunity to throw in with some old timer who had been doing it a lot longer than I and usually I would leave with egg on my face.

A little story to illustrate this: I had been hunting a certain section of country that I knew had several toms working thru it and a few females around to keep them interested. I knew most of the main crossings and travel ways but found a lot of the time I was making a big circle on horseback and not even hitting a track. No strikes no barks not much of anything. Now and then I would have the dogs blow up pretty hard and trail off and tree a lion pretty quick, but this was only when I hit things just right.

I had an old time lion hunter friend who wanted to come hunt a few days with me and I was all about it. I figured we might get lucky hit a good track and get to show him a lion.( I was hoping like heck anyway). LOL!

Well first day we saddled up and he took only 2 of his older dogs and I had 4 of mine all of which had seen quite a few lions in the tree. Well I figured we would be riding a long ways as usual so I just settled down in the saddle and waited. Well dropping down thru a saddle off a rim a little ways to work our way around this series of bluffs. I noted his old dogs were just up and down and around all under those bluffs and I mean they were looking and hunting like bird dogs. It wasn't long and one old spotted dogs crank off a big ole drawn out bawl, and in just a second the other dog joined in. He said well Old Brownie has us a start so now the work begins. My dogs went in and checked them but didn't show much interest and sort of looked back at me like they might get in trouble. He looked at me and said, I know what you are thinking but No Sir! It's a lion!
We got over in there and dug around and sure enough we had a lion track there in the sand below the ledge. You couldn't see it on the regular ground but it showed now and then in the decomposed sandstone. We had it the right way so we just sort of tried to stay with Brownie and Twister. They pounded on it making losses but quickly recovering it kept it moving slow but moving. It was over a mile before one old black dog I had finally got in on it a bit and whether he could really smell it or whether he was putting on a show for me he acted like it. He was no help on recovering the losses so I think he was mostly acting like a cheerleader. Well to cut the story down about 4 hours later all the dogs perked up and before long we had a jumped lion treed. My dogs acted great once they got to the warming point and they led the jump race. The old boy didn't say a thing.

We let that lion go and riding back in the direction of the trailer cutting around to shorten up the trip old Brownie struck again and again Twister was right there and they started pounding out a different track. Again my dogs ran around all excited for a bit from the chase before but in a little bit they were just like us watching those two old dirt dogs doing what they did. it was getting late so we pulled them and went in.

Next morning we came back where we left it, rode a few hundred yards in the general direction and boom! away those old dogs went again about the same speed as the afternoon before. Just about a repeat of the day before it took some hours of brutal work and trying to stay with them, and then things heated up and my group of cheerleaders joined the ball game and soon we had a lion bayed on a bluff ledge.

Next day some of my dogs were getting pretty tender footed although they certainly hadn't hunted and trailed as much as his two veterans who were still trotting along just fine. That day we changed country a bit and hit a track later in the day about like the others and we trailed till nearly dark without jumping it. We pulled the dogs and made for the trailer and we had just about got to it when my dogs blew up and peeled down of the mountainside and they were screaming. His two old dogs checked it and came back and I thought Oh Boy I am really going to look good now they are probably running a dang coyote. But in just a few minutes they were all locked down treed. His dogs would not go and he said , they got a fox or a bobcat, and I break my dogs off both so you will have to go fetch them. Well we went on to the truck and I got a light and he stayed there and ate some lunch. I made it to the dogs but scraped myself up a bit slipping a tripping down thru the rocks. When I got there they had a bout a half grown bobcat up a big cedar snag. I figured we had just rode up on it as it was heading out for it's night hunt and just missed seeing it standing in the trail.

Well I got back and told him the deal, and he said well that is why I break my dogs off cats and fox. We have so many of them where I hunt most of the time and their hides down there are not worth a nickel so I can't be spending my lion hunting time chasing around after them.

I picked his brain on the drive in and he said, there is nothing wrong with your dogs but for the work you are wanting to do they are just the wrong tool. If you are going to frame in a door you don't take a chainsaw and a 8# sledge to do it with you get the right tools for the job. they will get a little better at it as time goes along following real strike and trail dirt dogs but they will never make the real deal. you have got to start with the right tool, and then perfect your use of the tool and be willing to work, work, work to become a master carpenter with all the right tools in your bag.

I said so tell me what are the five points you look for in a dirt dog for lion? Answers:
1. He has to come from a long family of dogs on both sides that have been proven. Breed and color don't mean much although you will see most of my dogs look pretty much alike that is just how it worked out.
2. He has to have the drive and gift to naturally cold trail old tracks from a very early age.
3. He has to have the smarts to retain and recall so he improves all the time.
4. He has to be mentally tough and patient, this work is not timed event.
5. And last but not least he has to have athletic ability to get around in bad stuff and feet tough enough to take day after day hunting, cuz you don't always catch your lion in one day.

He said there are a lot of other things I could tell you but if you start with this and have a dog you really like and don't give up on him you will have yourself a lion dog.


I took his words to heart and although it took a long time a lot of effort and expense and sleepless nights I can say I wouldn't be as embarrassed today as I was back then hunting with that old boy.

[Bon Plott]

Good stuff

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[funstuff]

Mike, thanks for the info. Where would you suggest I start with this style of dog?

[Beebout-it]

Man I would love to come see some of those dogs you speak of go at it! Great stuff!

[Uncle Dave]

Sounds like we are about in the same position funstuff, although you may be a bit further along than myself. It sure isn't easy, but most things that are rewarding aren't. Keep on grubing along that track on the trail to the right dogs!

[Mike Leonard]

Thanks all, and my best suggestion to find good bare ground lion dogs is to go to the country where that is all the lion hunters get is bare ground. Then inquire around who is doing most of the catching and then get ahold of that person and ask for some advice.

Sort of like looking for a good rough country vehicle. you don't go to the sports car showroom and pick out a flashy one and then take it home and start jacking it up with lift kits, putting on big knobby tires and winches, and adding four wheel drive to it because you may get around a little better you will spend a lot of money and still be spinning your tires at the end of the day.

[Chris Todd]

The main thing a person finds out when trying to make a pack of lion hounds is that it takes time lots of time. I have hunted with just this past year several good lion hound packs. And the one thing that stands out in all of them. Is that they get hunted a lot. To try to answer what I like to see in a dry ground lion hound. Id like tell about a hunt me and a buddy took a couple days ago. And the work of my Little Brownie dog.
To start with Brownie was bred for the job. Her father was one of the best I have ever owned. And her mom also was a top grubbing lion hound with good speed . So I always look at the parents and hopefully their parents before picking a pup.
Me and a buddy were out checking some new country. Came to a dirt tank and decided to take a look. Well at this dirt tank I spotted a female track. Told my partner it didn't look real fresh. But decided to let Brownie out to give it a try. I put Brownies garmin on her and told her to go hunt em up. And here is another trait I want to see in my hounds. Brains. I told Brownie to go hunt em up and she knew exactly what I was talking about. She hit the ground and started circling the dirt tank. She knew what I wanted, and she knew there was a lion track around that tank somewhere. Well after watching Brownie awhile I figured the track to be to old. So I went back to the truck to let the rest of the hounds out for a breather. I should have known better. While I was watching Brownie she kept returning to the same spot. She would smell real hard , then wiggle her tail extra hard and try to move on. About the time I got the rest of the hounds out of the truck. My buddy walks up and says. Hey I heard a hound barking over in that canyon. Crap that's all I could say. The Garmin showed Brownies last signal at 1200 yards.
And here is another thing I want in my hounds is determination. Brownie kept returning to the same spot and working. She knew there had been a lion at the dirt tank. And she was determined to find it.
Well that leads to Brownies last great attribute that makes her special. And that is speed. I got the other hounds in behind Brownie. But I am sure she treed this lion way out in front of the rest of the hounds.
You have heard that speed kills. Well in Brownies case the combination of Breeding,Brains,Determination and speed are deadly on Mt Lions. And to add to that she is one of the toughest hounds I have ever hunted with. I have hounds that are not as fast as Brownie on a track, and they do a good job catching lions. But if some one held a gun to my head. And asked what I thought the perfect lion hound was. I would say Brownie is as close as I have ever hunted with.

[pegleg]

There's some good points made. Bobcat and lion combination dogs in real dry stuff are difficult to get. You dang near have to have a command for what your hunting. The real challenge for me is catching a specific lion off a real old track compared to any lion they come across. Some dogs stick to what they strike or are put down On and others will switch to a fresher track. When you get a dog that trails Bobcats it's a combination of nose concentration and the in born ability knowto know what a bobcat is most likely to do. Like Mike said a bobcat track that's real fresh is a nice heads up race in decent dry ground conditions. But honestly most of my Bobcats are caught at certain times of year under similar conditions or off hot strikes.
But you take a lion track that is as hard to trail and if you do catch it. It will be a small percentage and is going to require some solid work on your part and the hounds.
Dogs learn what's catchable for the most part.
But if you have a hound that is used to being set on a specific track and you encourage it on a burnt out lion track be ready for some long hours and maybe days. When a good hound only grubs it's nose and gives a little tail wag in those good areas it's going to be luck and hard work combined.
I've got two hounds I really depend on sometimes but I'm kinda cautious about how much encouragement I give them.
I was trying to catch one off a kill that was used up. But as it was the soonest I could get there and the best shot I had we took it. The first day was mostly keeping the younger dogs interested or out of the way at least. The second day my brother took the younger dogs of in another direction. I took four dogs with me. We grubbed and grubbed. there were dead spots where we had to go check way over there and then way back down another ridge to get anything. About 3 o'clock the dogs got into some tumbled down rock's and started trailing decent from there it seemed to get steadier.
wanting to get as much track as possible I kept going. We had angled off to the right and got up along a long ridge and the dogs were beat but going steady. We pulled off and headed to camp got there and my brother showed me where he had gone and around four miles from where we quit they had found a deer kill that was heavely Fed on and had trailed around in two canyons half the day. The next day we all went back to the ridge and started the track again and by a little past ten ended up right at that deer.
This is were being able and alert to reading your hounds would pay off. If the conditions are decent and the hounds are struggling . it is your job to do the reasoning. If I had to do it again I should have pulled them and started cutting much bigger arcs and done more of the thinking.
I sometimes run ten or more hounds But find four is a good number on the more difficult tracks or times of year. To many young dogs can muck up a hard track and slow things down or blow it trying to switch to a different track or any number of things. The more hounds you run the better control you have to have over each one and collectively.
Good bobcat dogs are prone to taking what's fresher and this can lead to switching tracks.
And since dogs that honor each other are better for me it can cause problems .
I might be to restrictive on that idependant streak now but split racea in big country is not very effective.

[Cowboyvon]

Good info.. for sure .. " A good hard working son of a bitch that runs to catch...they gotta have a big heart and hard feet " Henry McIntyre..

[Chris Todd]

Love the quote Brett. That about sums it up. I can't abide by a quitter. Both in hounds and people . Their a dime a dozen.