Dogs Loading Up

[david]

Everybody to their own, but in the world of things to ruin my day hunting, helping a dog jump is low on the list,

I know better than to get in a theological debate with you Perk because you won’t quit until you have won.

If you are picturing me always driving down the road to get a dog to load , you have missed my point completely. That would only be because I have got somebody else’s dog they raised. I have Never had to do that with a dog I raised from a pup.

I am trying to help this man solve a problem that he feels he has. I agree with him. He has a problem. But here is how you can fix it. (The above posts)

If you start from a pup and teach it obedience you won’t have to waste any time or energy out on the hunt. It’s fun and automatic. No thought, no stress, just fun.

To you it’s not a problem. To him and to me it is.

(I edited the previous post before I knew you had posted. It kind of applies maybe, but it was not in response to this last post of yours)

[david]

If I have to help a dog load, it takes away from my experience because now I’m thinking I’m hauling an idiot. I gotta have dogs that look like they are smart even if they are not.

I once hunted regularly with a young man who had a nice hound that never would load. I knew I could teach her to load but I wanted him to teach her because she looked foolish which made him feel embarrased every time he helped her in. I finally told him don’t call me to go hunting again until that dog can load herself. And low and behold, that dog loaded herself the next time we went. She was proud, my young friend was proud and I was proud. She looked smarter even if she wasn’t. Ive never seen a young healthy hound of sound body and mind that can’t be taught to load. If loading is not important to the handler, then that’s fine, they might not learn it.
But they can.

[Nolte]

Just get a flat bed with boxes on the side so you have to lift every one in. Then you don't have to feel bad for your dog not loading. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] Oddly enough my lab will self load himself in the hunting truck but I've never had a hound do it. Launch up about 30 inches into a 12 inch hole. Course he'd do the same off a cliff if it meant getting to ride in the truck.

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[david]

Nolte, a theory question: do you think labs are more athletic than a speed and drive foxhound?

I don’t really know the answer to that, they are very different, but I have seen hounds load onto the rigging platform before the tailgate could be lowered.

I get the 12” square hole though. That is short.

It sounds like they could get hurt trying to get in there and I don’t want a dog doing things that will hurt him. I would lift a dog in if that is the only safe way to get him in. But I would be giving serious thought to a design that would be safe for them to load themselves. Not sure if there is one, but I would be thinking about it.

I know jumping down constantly can do damage. Have seen it happen. I might be wondering if I should be lifting them down. I sure don’t want them jumping off the rigging platform before the tailgate is down.

[Nolte]

Nolte, a theory question: do you think labs are more athletic than a speed and drive foxhound?.

Well I dont know about all labs but the ones I've had out of more upland type lines were more springy than most hounds I've had if that makes sense. They just could really jump and could load in a truck with the tailgate up, and not always by my choice. I used to always use my labs to teach the pups how to load in a normal truck. Also used them for swimming lessons.

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[perk]

David, I think I got lured off topic from the original post, just in the sake of debate ... my 1st post which was really to question why he must load. I Even offered a solution I use to teach them, which is pulling up on collar and encouraging to jump, this tends to encourage them to learn. I don’t pick them up from underneath and ‘lift’ them into truck.

I give dogs that don’t work for me to friends or ppl I know who will take them. Most people it is the only dog they have that will load itself. I live in a dog hunting rich environment, and much like Bookie and the boys before meeting Finley, many don’t how a dog can handle.
These men with their ill handling dogs, still enjoy hunting and hunting dogs.

I think my original post was best explained by a story you told where you wouldn’t let young man hunt anymore til dog loaded. Bc you thought dog was dumb and were embarrassed for him for not loading. I do not know nvtrapper, or his level of experience. But wanted to encourage him to know that not all hunters need to conform to another person opinion of what a worthy hound does (you, or me, or the next computer expert, or houndman across the cow pasture). The only man a dog needs to suit is his owner, so if he believes a dog should load, absolutely work on it, but if he is only doing so bc another man told him, or he feels the pressure from reading what is said here and other sites that dog must do, then someone should tell him it’s ok if they don’t.
We don’t know the motivation for the day old question ...Why do I want my dog to load?

[david]

All valid points. Where I came from, I can’t remember ever seeing a man with dogs that wouldn’t load. It is just a given. Dogs can easily load themselves, so why wouldn’t someone want them to. “Why do I want my dog to load” is a question that would never even enter my world. “Why do I want to breath?” Would be a similar question for me. I don’t have to question my motives for breathing. It is just what all people do. Where I come from, dogs load by themselves. The question would never arise.

If I stop breathing, then questions are raised.
Likewise, if a dog won’t load, it puzzles me, and questions come up. Like: “how on earth can you teach a dog to not load? What kind of training technique would you use to get him to not do that?” I hope I never have to break a dog From loading. I wouldn’t know where to start.

[perk]

Expectations are diff in diff areas! For you and the men you were introduced to dog hunting by it was normal. I grew up in a dog hunting culture, having packs of dogs at home since birthand dogs loading themselves wasnt a thought at all for me til 20 yrs ago, and for guys who been in dogs longer it still is as trivial as can be.
I will give an example of how I ruined a good dog by having him jump on truck. David maybe 4-5 yrs back you were by in the spring time, we hunted a day or 2. One of those mornings we went with my buddy Allen. I took a top male of mine who wouldnt run a cat only a fox. He ended up jumping a fox that day we ran after. Anyways he was a bit heavy due to sitting on the chain alot as we hunted for mostly cats the previous few months. He jumped up to load from chain that morning and didnt quite make it, fell back and landed on his shoulder. From that moment on his shoulder was ruined, couldnt run with pack, hunted him a bit more around young foxes that run tight circles, but he was basically useless after the jump. he is an old dog on my chain now with 2 blown shoulders, and a bad hip from compensating for that bad shoulder. He will live here til he dies, have pups off him and grand pups off him, wish he was physically stable enough to breed agian. He was however one of the best cold nosed trail dogs, jump dogs and track driving hounds I've ever owned. And his fox hunting career was cut short due to my desire to have him jump on the truck.
Everytime I see one jump on and misjudge the height and fall back on side I remember how my pack took a huge hit when a fresh dog didnt quite judge the height of box.

[david]

Man that’s rough Perk. I didn’t know all that. Or if I did know it I forgot. I think about the second time I saw the dogs miss, I would dig a couple little holes or a shallow trough to put the back wheels in at morning load up time when the dogs are stiff. Or put up a little mound of dirt to back up to.

Those holes don’t have to be much at all. A depression of a few inches makes a world of difference. It gets the tailgate sloping down which magnifies the effect the further the end of the tailgate is from the rear axle.

Sorry for your loss. I knew he did not hunt any more. I didn’t know the whole why of it.

[Nvtrapper]

Lots of good information, and debate, here fellas. I truly appreciate every one of you taking the time to respond with advice and different discussions. The new training began today and we are already working better on loading into the truck/box.

[pegleg]

of all the things to debate loading seems minor. Theres also the rule git in or walk. Now some folks might not hunt large enough country to make that much of a threat to a hound but i do and they wont forget it. i will probably be demonized but its happened plenty of times. Each and everything you do seems strange to someone else. I have had guys look at me like ive grown another head for packing hounds out. Just as if im in the middle of nowhere with a dog that knows better and it wont fall in line coming home ill remind it a time or two then it better hope its ability to get home is developed as well as it believes. The conditions and situations you hunt have a great deal to do with what you or your hounds are.going to consider normal.
Dogs are as maleable as humans or more so. But if their world experiences are limited they like us develop more rigid behaviors.
Sometimes i wish i spent more effort in taking pictures or video i can think of many times hounds have put a great deal into securing various methods of transportation when they felt it was the better option. And the motivation had nothing to do with GOING hunting. And yet thats the most common and generally stongest motivator.
And david really which is more intelligent the dog that knows getting in the box means it gets to hunt. Or the dog that knows that AND if it just waits someone will expend the energy to put them in the box?
Its not really any different then the dog that will lay on its back so its feet can be wrapped or boots put on. It has realised hunting with out them isnt nearly as fun.

[david]

I like your rule!

[lawdawgharris]

Lots of good points and suggestions on here. I myself have a bench or shelf over every dog house in my kennels. My love them. One set of kennels has lower benches than the other kennels. That's the first set of kennels that my pups go in when I quit keeping them all in the yard together. I also use those kennels for injured dogs if I have any. The other kennel benches are about waist high nearly. Like I say, my dogs love them and for the puppies, up and down almost becomes a game. When I go in the kennel I make them get on the bench before I will pet them. I have gotten new dogs before that wouldn't jump up there and to teach them, or allow them to learn it on their own, I did one of 2 things. I would feed them up there or put them in a kennel where they had to get up there to be able to socialize with their neighbor. If I have one that refuses to load, when puts his feet up I get ahold of their collar and pull upwards and swat them on the butt and then give a little help as they more or less give to the pressure and kinda brace their head back against the hand in the collar for leverage and do.a sort of push up to get in. Once he's in the box I will pet him up good. Once or twice of that and it's all good usually. I'm with perk on spare the rod spoil the child. That dont mean beat them like a drum. In a herd of mustangs, when the lead mare or stud walks up says move they pin their ears back and say it. Now if the horse they are telling don't move, they don't say ok I'll come back when your done doing what you want. They reach out there let them know they were telling not asking. They do it by biting or kicking or whatever but its gonna happen when and how they say or else. Perk's professional example was extremely accurate. I worked a while in the Texas Prison system. All these violence don't solve anything folks are wrong. They misconstrue physical direction as violence. That just isn't correct. Violence is created when there is malice or ill intent associated with it. The inmates are much the same as the horses, there is a pecking order and when it is challenged there are repercussions. I believe in the positive reinforcement when applicable, but that isn't always the case.

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[Cowboyvon]

lol wow you boys need to get out and hunt.. I have a couple of dogs I have to help ..no big deal .. and I breath too lol

[scrubrunner]

When you are hunting 10 to 14 head and you have inadvertently taught them that "load up" and "tapping the tailgate" means just put your front paws on the tailgate, it becomes a problem, when after hunting ,having multiple races and multiple loadings every day it takes 2 weeks for you to realize why your elbow hurts so bad you have to get your shotgun out of the truck with your off hand.
I built my dog houses about tailgate high. I also built individual benches for each dog, much like bench show benches that I feed on. Each dog has its own bench in the dog yard where I keep them all together. When I go to feed I tell them to "get in your spot" I will not step foot in the pen till all dogs are on their bench. (In addition this has made doctoring, worming, nail trimming etc. so much easier plus when I'm gone my wife doesn't mind feeding them).
After I made these changes I haven't even had teach one to load up, they just do it. Every now n then one will just put their feet up, I will push back n tell it again to load up or do like Perk, drag it in with the collar and swat on the butt n go about my business.
Now a days though with my foxhounds, I fox hunt a lot in national forest, sometimes I road up to 8 head at the same time, there is a lot of non-hunting traffic, when I see headlights coming and tap the horn and yell "load up" it's not optional, they have do it and do it now, or I could have ran-over dogs.