Foxdogs

[perk]

I'd say all good families of dogs fade away or are substantially changed within 2-3 generations after the passing of its creator. Everyone breeds for minor differences, and breeding towards the traits we kike can change the quality of dogs, for the good or the better. Heck my daddy is one the best houndsmen I've ever been around, hunted with him since I was able to walk, and we see some things differently. So no matter how close to your mentor your gonna see things and rate things differently.

[lawdawgharris]

Yes and also knowing what you’ve created is a cheat sheet. Sometimes certain qualities or characteristics accompany certain others, they run hand and hand so to speak. Those type of things are the things that only the creator would know unless he shared it with someone else.


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[dwalton]

Perk I like what you say about people different expectation on what a dog is we all have different ideas and bred for different things. I Was born in Arkansas but raised in Oregon. My first hunting with hounds was with my uncles and cousins there fox, coon, squirrel and rabbits. I hunted a lot here when I was young when I got driver license i was able to hunt with good hunter and learned from them. I aways hunted a lot on my own and hunted to catch game. It is aways good to be out and hear a good trail job and race . I went and stayed with Finny hunt there and in Texas with him in his latter years, he came out here and hunted with me 3 days and invited me to Florida to hunt with he thought my dogs would do good there I regret no taking the time to go. I have hunted most western state, Arkansasand Texas with good cat dogs different world there. Good hunting Dewey

[perk]

I have been lucky in the hound world, Im a 4th generation hound hunter. My dad who is my biggest influence, and we keep a combined pack together, he is a good houndsman, with an abundance of patience with a hound, we generally argue over 2 things, he feeds dogs more than me and I don't like a fat dog, don't want skin and bones but want them to look in good condition and muscle tone, the other is when to cull a dog. Im pretty patient, around 3 is the time I usually decide if the dog will stay, my dad will take longer in some dogs, occasionally his patience pays off, usually it doesn't, but he is patient and several dogs over last 25 yrs I would cull, he kept around and turned out really good dogs. I got to hunt with a couple local guys who had great dogs, hard hunters, and tons of knowledge, and they let me soak that up. Spent several trips to florida and Arkansas, and hours on the phone with Finney, spent about 4 thanksgiving in a row with them hunting, much to the chagrine of my own mother.
All that being said I think a lot of the better breeders and hunters have just an 'it' factor. Yeah they usually hunt the hardest, but I've known and seen guys who had great mentors, tried to listen, hunted hard as life allowed and still could really break into a category of what I call a good groundsmen. So guys can hunt years and never get a dog or pack to be trash broke, some always seemed to get the worst pups out a litter, it's like no matter what the knack to succeed in their pursuit just didn't click. Some of those guys lowered expectations maybe allowed more species to be ran than originally targeted.
Looks like the really good houndsmen I've known had good mentors but just always seem have a knack for it. Good mentors wasn't enough.

[perk]

And that wasnt me saying I have a knack for it, just an observation about the successful houndsmen from what I've seen

[lawdawgharris]

Perk, some people definitely just have an eye for a good animal some just have a natural gift and understanding of animals. I know a guy that didn’t have any mentors to speak of. That’s one of the reasons his life has taken the road it has, his only examples were bad examples. When it came to dogs and horses though, he was gifted. He could get them to do anything. I right now thinking about an old bulldog he had. I’ve taught dogs to play dead, but when he would pretend to shoot that dog with his finger, that dog could be in mid stride and fold up like someone just flipped a switch. I’m talking about limp as a wet noodle. Then he’d tell him you’re not dead, come on. That rascal would spring up just as jolly and happy, it was hilarious. He’s locked up now though because he was riding his horse through town at night without any headlights on and got hit by a car. To make matters worse he was high as a kite and the horse had to be put down. Chemical dependencies are the vice of many anymore. My dad is probably my biggest influence as well. He’s one that spot “that” animal and at an early age. He could look at a dog, horse, or rooster way early in their lives and tell you what it was going to be at maturity. It’s something that I learned from him. It’s details that most overlook. I do it with people as well. When I worked for the prison system I looked at every inmate as they approached me. I was picking them apart physically in their build and the way they moved. If they had a weak spot to exploit that’s was my target if I needed it and I made a mental note for that inmate from
then on. I see those things in people’s horses and dogs as well. There was a time when I was shoeing a few horses. That’s something that benefited me at that task as well. It’s the smallest details sometimes that most either don’t pay attention to or choose to ignore that make the difference. I’m not saying by any means that I’m gifted or that I’m that guy you mentioned with the “it” factor, it’s just something I’ve noticed about the guys I admired for being what seemed elite. If you hunt with my dogs you’ll know I’m not elite, lol.


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[macedonia mule man]

Perk. Do you still have any Clay hounds and did you ever cross anything of your breeding to any Clay.

[perk]

Muleman the answer to those questions are yes and yes. A buddy of mine with clay dogs just bred a pair of his older tightly bred littermate gyps. One to an old male outta stock I been raising for 25 yrs, and one to a younger clay bred male I had raised. The old male has crossed well on clay stock before, and the young male is tight bred clay dog. So I still hunting both stock individually and a cross of the stocks of hound.

[lawdawgharris]

Perk have you ever noticed a difference when crossing the families when your line is the sire to his gyp vs his line being the sire bred to one of your gyps? For example is was told when I was younger to use a male hound over the cur gyp if wanted silent or less mouthy pups, that doing it the opposite way would produce a higher percentage of own trailing dogs. I know 100% that it can make drastic differences in the game chicken world. I understand though that they are birds and there are differences in the reproduction of birds and mammals.


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[perk]

No difference I particularly want to say in writing for the world to see, as people who don't know me and read this may read into it as me identifying one superior to the other, in general I've noticed a difference or 2, Nothing drastic though.

One thing I have noticed over the years is if you want to have dogs trying to kill small game (fox/cat) not just sit back and bay it, I think it is important to breed to a male with high prey drive. In my experience hounds bred off a male that isn't crazy over a dead piece of game don't have a good kill instinct no matter how gritty the mother. Also when I was hunting and hunting with a lot of running dogs who located and treed or bayed hard at a hole, if the sire did it the offspring had a much higher chance of being a treeing dog than if the sire didn't. I've seen sites that tree hard bred to gyps who had no desire to do so produce great tree dogs, and seen top treeing females bred to males that didn't care to do so, and none of those pups I can remember ever did much at a hole or tree ... Just observations from over the years, not really related to what your direct question was.

[lawdawgharris]

That is a very interesting observation Perk. I am going to be paying attention to that for sure. For my particular discipline, two of the hardest things to breed for are how much bite my bay dogs have and the size of my catch dogs. There is such a fine line on too much and too little in those two areas. I’ve learned that starting with a big female is the easiest way to accomplish raising my targeted size. But maybe I have a female that meets the requirements except she is undersized. If I use her to breed to then I have to breed her to a male that is excessive in size. She is going to bring the size down on the pups so breeding to a male that is the desirable size will produce still undersized pups. It’s worked pretty well so far. I do the same thing trying to breed for the right bite in my bay dogs.


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