Bobcat dogs vs Lion dogs

[david]

Budd, I been working real hard to try and get my financial life in order. Another couple years of that, and I should be debt free. Man, will that be a blessed day. It's been over two years now since I hunted, and the thing I worry about is the decline of my body. It is pretty frightening to realize how much I have lost in two years. If I can walk at all two years from now, I will be back at it, Lord willing.

Nmplott: It is the thing I have learned to kind of avoid, because it always makes some one mad, but I think squirrell dogs have a lot more to give bobcat dogs than do lion dogs.

I have hunted with some dogs that were developed exclusively for lion. Nice dogs with a lot of great and admirable qualities, But they could not catch a bobcat on the ground if their life depended on it.

On the other hand, there are many many dogs that were developed primarily for squirrell that can and will catch a bobcat on the ground, or tree it and hold it in the tree with their eyes. They lack some of the great and useful qualities of the dogs developed for lion. But if I could only take one dog, and my life depended on catching a bobcat, I would have to take the squirrell dog from one of the strains that can trail, and have a little grit. I might have to do more leg work myself, but I would come home with the fur.

I never have explored the coyote hounds, but I know many bobcat are caught with them, or with mixes containing coyote or foxhound blood.

I myself would avoid the lion bred dogs, and lean toward the coyote and squirrell bred dogs. Sounds goofy, I know, but from what I have seen, it is what I would do.

If I wanted the sport to somehow pay for itself though, I would try to find the closest thing to that among registered dogs, and just grin and bear it knowing I could sell my excess pups and started dogs for a decent price. There are some registered dogs with some running dog qualities and also some cur dog qualities and a number of them turn into bobcat dogs.

[Budd Denny]

David, I'm not real sure of the strain of dogs you ran but I know Mike said your dogs could flat out catch cats. He said you are a pretty hard core bobcat man.

[david]

David, I'm not real sure of the strain of dogs you ran but I know Mike said your dogs could flat out catch cats. He said you are a pretty hard core bobcat man.

Bud, it feels like I should respond to that, but not quite sure how.

First off, this says more about Mike Walsh than it says about me.

I know Mike Walsh. I have come to expect words like that from Mike. I have never heard anything but encouraging words come out of that man's mouth. I have been with him on a couple of occasions when I would have wanted to rip into someone if I was in his shoes. Now, he would have no idea what I am talking about, because it is like he can not even see the offense. He seems to see only good in people.

There is a song that goes something like this: "I've been to redwood, I've been to Holywood, I've been a miner for a HEART OF GOLD. I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line that keeps me searching for a
HEART OF GOLD.... and I'm getting old. Keeps me searching for a HEART OF GOLD... and I'm getting old."

Well, if someone reading this has become disillusioned with people, and maybe with hound people in general, and you are thinking maybe there is nothing but hearts of stone out there: pm me and I will get you in touch with Mike Walsh. Your search for a heart of gold will be over.

Bud, it is kind of you to put those words up here where everyone and their mother can see them. I have to tell you though, I am not a hardcore bobcat man. I wanted to be, and if that was all I ever was, I would have been very happy. But I had to choose between being a hardcore bobcat man, and a hardcore father. I chose my two children.
I still choose my two children. I choose them every day.

It should be an easy choice, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes, I still am pulled by the mountains. Sometimes, I still am pullled by the desire I have had since childhood to walk into the mountains and never come back out. Sometimes I still am haunted by the beleif that I was given the stamina, heart and drive of Jim Bridger or Ben Lilly: that I could have done most everything old Ben did. Everything except.... abandon my children.

Death beds are an interesting place.
There is where people are suddenly faced with what is of true value in life. Funny how people on their death beds never wish they had spent more time at the office, or made more money, or spent more time accomplishing great things like developing better dogs or becomeing a more hardcore hunter. They dont wish they had given themselves more stuff, more and better food, more time for "myself".

They always wish they had spent more and better time with the people they love. They always wish they had spent more time with their children:
enjoying them more, teaching them more completely, building them up daily, making them strong enough to stand up and do the right thing...
Showing them more completely how to shoot baskets, hit a baseball, catch fish, drive more safely, work harder, treat peo0ple with more respect and kindness, choose a good mate, and struggle through the hard times with that mate until death.

People on their death bed often wish they had spent more time trying to understand God and drawing nearer to him, and then helping their family to do the same. They wish they had given more generously of their time knowledge and money to others, and not been so darn selfish.

Even the great Billy Grahm when asked if he had any regrets said that he wished he had spent more time with his family. are there any more noble accomplishments than the ones he made? Yet he wishes he had accomplished less of what history would recognize and more of what his wife and children would be the only ones to see.

I am pretty sure these things are the same things I will wish on my death bed. I am pretty sure I will not be wishing I could have been a more hardcore bobcat hunter.

Right now though Bud, I pretty much just wish I could have been a more hardcore bobcat hunter. That's why the words you posted mean so much to me. And especially coming from Mike Walsh, who always has dogs that any bobcat hunter would be proud to own. I am humbled.
God bless you both.

[R Severe]

Dang David, you da man After that post, you could know absolutley nothin bout dogs and I'd be happy to carry your leashes on a hunt

I'd say you took the right fork in the road, can't wait to hear the stories when you finish your real life's work and hit the mountains for a little reward time.

[BlacktailStalker]

That was a pretty deep post David.
Don't know anything about you but I sure hope you get back in the hills to spend time doing your most enjoyable passion, second to your children.

[Dan Edwards]

Dang David, I would tell you that you put a tear in my eye but you would know that I was lying. Anyhow, they still got salmon up there at Turtle's Tap if you are ever in the area.

[Budd Denny]

David, now I know why Mike thinks so much of ya. Your welcome to run with me anytime.

[tramp]

sir, 1 of the finest posts i have seen.

[jeff]

David,
I went back thru the post's and read thru it completley, as I should have instead of bouncing around like I do, and my hat is off to you, look forward to more of your post in the future, I truley enjoy this Forum at
"BigGameHoundsmen" Thanks to all.
Jeff

I heard from somewhere I can not recall right now that some bobcat hunters cross in squirel dogs, as supposedly squirel dogs check a tree more frequently before they began to tree. I wonder if any one has heard of this and if it holds true.

nmplott,
Their is a gentlemen in U.P of Michigan that has a Regestered Walker male (Luke)that is a top notch bobcat dog, and he runs this hound on bobcat and on squirrle's in the off season.

Some say luke is the best bobcat dog in this state, anyhow, you never know, may be somthing their, never really thought about it before your post.

Jeff

[drew]

Wow, i just took a peak at this discussion... David GREAT POST. I think for most of us there's that fine line between work and play and only few are lucky enough to combine the two. Thanks.

[az_gogetem]

Great post Mr.David. Makes somebody realize how LUCKY we truly are to get to spend time out doing whatever it is we love. Whether it's behind the dogs, chasing hooved animals or spending that extra time with the family.

Now on the subject of this thread.

I do believe I am about to test this theory of y'alls about a true bobcat dog having no problem catching lions. Saturday I am picking up a dog from oregon that put up 50 short tails by herself in a 2 month span. That is a freakishly high number in my mind. Maybe it's not considered such a huge number where y'all are hunting but down here a dog might not see 50 bobbers in their entire life. We'll see if this "bobcat dog" can hack it in the arizona dirt. And test this whole theory about bobcat dogs.

I have a hard time stomaching some of these posts when I'm reading. The last year or so I've been pulling (or shocking if necessary) my dogs off of bobcats, because if you want to catch a lion in the arizona dirt you had better have a dog that wants to catch a lion or they'll switch over on the first stubby they cross and it gets old seeing lions get away to go chase a bobber.

Now, I'm smart enough to recognize conditions are different and in the snow it's probably a whole lot easier to catch a lion but here in the dirt it's one of the more difficult things to do, good dogs or not.

So I'll be glad to test the theory for everybody and let you know what I think. I do think this old girl may have an advantage though, she's not too shabby of a lion dog either.

[Big N' Blue]

David, that was a very eloquent post. my prayers to you and your family.

David Sudduth

[liontracker]

Gogetem,definately keep us posted on the dog you are getting. Are you going to use this dog on bobcat or lion? Or maybe both?

[Houndswoman]

David, God Bless You for doing whats right by your family. But do try to find some time to hunt, because if you are happy your family will be happier.

I know that this old lion hunter I am with would be absolutely miserable to live with if something kept him from trailing and catching lions and cats.


Here's what he has to say:
As far as trailing and catching a coon being more difficult than a lion. We had a good laugh. Maybe if you dunked them both in a tank and turned them loose across a stretch of bare dirt and then came back in 12 hours. You may be right in that situation. The problem when making straight comparisons between species is that how the game is hunted and with what style of dog is not brought into the discussion.

Compare cat dogs that are all good and tree cats:

1. strikes 90% of tracks from the top of the truck and has a fast track from the start in an area of high bobcat numbers ; trees 50 per year

2. carried in the truck and put down on tracks in the snow; if they don't take the track right away go on and find another they can run; trees 30 per year

3. 4 - 6 dogs hunted freecast and expected to take their tracks as they come; cold trail 4 or 5 hours on dirt, jump locate and tree; trees 10 - 20 per year

Dog 1 would not do its best in the situation of dog 3 and vice versa. We prefer dog 3.

The best dry ground lion dog may not be able to catch a cat if his life depeded on it. The very best cat dog described in # 3 could be the best dry ground lion hound alive.

Good luck.

[david]

I do believe I am about to test this theory of y'alls about a true bobcat dog having no problem catching lions. Saturday I am picking up a dog from oregon

We'll see if this "bobcat dog" can hack it in the arizona dirt. And test this whole theory about bobcat dogs.

So I'll be glad to test the theory for everybody and let you know what I think. :

az_gogetem, What part of Oregon is the dog from?

Unless the dog is from the Oregon desert, here is the theory you will be testing: "Bobcat dogs from western Oregon do not do well in Arizona".

Check the thread on bobcat dogs that change scenery:
viewtopic.php?p=28013#28013

If you want to test the "bobcat dog having no problem catching lions" you need to test a bobcat dog from Arizona on Arizona lion. Go ahead and test your Oregon bobcat dog on Oregon lions. They have a few there for you to do the test on.

thank you az for your kind words of encouragement. God bless.