Bobcat dogs vs Lion dogs

Talk about Big Game Hunting with Dogs
david
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Post by david »

Houndswoman wrote:David, God Bless You for doing whats right by your family. But do try to find some time to hunt, because if you are happy your family will be happier.

I know that this old lion hunter I am with would be absolutely miserable to live with if something kept him from trailing and catching lions and cats.


Here's what he has to say:
As far as trailing and catching a coon being more difficult than a lion. We had a good laugh. ...
Thanks to you and to all who have encouraged me in this way regarding my family and keeping things in perspective.

As far as coon being more of a challenge to a dog than lion, my comment had two levels:

On one level, my lion hunting experience is very limited as I mentioned. In my experiences, yes, coon would have been more challenging to the dogs. If for no other reason, the coon can not be located by sight, and the dogs cannot be refreshed in their desire to stay treed everytime they look upward and see a huge animal. In most cases, when coon hunting they can look upward and not see any animal at all. They have to trust their original attempt at locating by scent, and possibly some airborn scent that might drift down.

There is a dog I had to hunt with for a few years because his owner refused to do the right thing with him. The dog should have been culled a hundred times. He was not only worthless as a coon or bobcat dog, but was a dog fighter. The dog actually looked pretty good lion hunting. He could have sold that dog for good money under a lion tree.

On the second level of my original comparison to coon hunting:
sometimes I say things to hopefully irritate someone that knows a lot more than me. I have always been hungry for knowledge, and sometimes will go out of my way to try and draw it out of someone that has the knowledge but is not talking..

For me, the scenery and the experience of lion hunting has always been exhilerating and beautiful on many levels. But I have always felt a sense of disappointment in what is required of the dogs. I always felt like they didn't really learn anything, and were not really challenged. They always really like it. But it is "liking it" more like the way I like jumping in the river after a long day of putting up mid summer hay. The "lion hunting" seems like the "jumping in the river" for the dogs: a nice break from the hard work of catching bobcats.

I want to beleive there is Oh so much more to lion hunting. And, actually, I have always felt there was. So I kept making little stabs hoping someone like you would come forth, and tell me that yes, in fact, there is a lot more to lion hunting, and it is in fact a great challenge to a dog.

Keep it coming
Ike

Re: here we go

Post by Ike »

az_gogetem wrote:Great post Mr.David. Makes somebody realize how LUCKY we truly are to get to spend time out doing whatever it is we love. Whether it's behind the dogs, chasing hooved animals or spending that extra time with the family.

Now on the subject of this thread.

I do believe I am about to test this theory of y'alls about a true bobcat dog having no problem catching lions. Saturday I am picking up a dog from oregon that put up 50 short tails by herself in a 2 month span. That is a freakishly high number in my mind. Maybe it's not considered such a huge number where y'all are hunting but down here a dog might not see 50 bobbers in their entire life. We'll see if this "bobcat dog" can hack it in the arizona dirt. And test this whole theory about bobcat dogs.

I have a hard time stomaching some of these posts when I'm reading. The last year or so I've been pulling (or shocking if necessary) my dogs off of bobcats, because if you want to catch a lion in the arizona dirt you had better have a dog that wants to catch a lion or they'll switch over on the first stubby they cross and it gets old seeing lions get away to go chase a bobber.

Now, I'm smart enough to recognize conditions are different and in the snow it's probably a whole lot easier to catch a lion but here in the dirt it's one of the more difficult things to do, good dogs or not.

So I'll be glad to test the theory for everybody and let you know what I think. I do think this old girl may have an advantage though, she's not too shabby of a lion dog either. :wink:
Let us know how that bobcat dog handles the lion hunting in the Arizona desert az_gogettem, cause I'd be interested in that one. And I'll have to agree that trailing down a old tom lion track in the dirt is one of the toughest things a hound will ever do. Last spring, I had a hunter in and a buddy of mine went and ran dogs in the hole I was planning to hunt the next day. I had stayed out of there for two weeks so I wouldn't bump a tom out of the country. The next morning, I found the tom track without a hound track on it around 8:00 AM; in truth, the dogs struck a scratch and showed me the track.

Anyway, to make a long story short I had three dogs on that track for over twelve hours and never made the jump on him. I also found my buddies' tracks all over the adjacent canyon and figured his barking dogs had probably gotten that tom up the day before and he scooted out of there to safety. Anybody that thinks lion hunting isn't as challenging a sport as there is with hounds hasn't done much dirt lion hunting.......

ike
david
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Post by david »

Dan Edwards wrote:Dang David, I would tell you that you put a tear in my eye but you would know that I was lying. Anyhow, they still got salmon up there at Turtle's Tap if you are ever in the area.
Again, thankyou to EVERYONE that sent me an encouraging word.

But as for you Dan Edwards, I know you would be lying if you said I put A (singular) tear in your eye, because you and I both know your were balling your eyes out. Your daughter told me how embarrassed she was at the 101 Dalmations movie when everyone was looking at you sitting there sobbing in the sad parts.

And as for you Dan Edwards, that salmon was GOOD, and most of all it was FREE... for me (unfortunately not free for you). But actually, that was some of the most expensive salmon I ever ate. Here's why:
Whatever you got is contageous, or maybe it was the salmon. Anyway, I left your place going blind again.

I got home and started calling all over the country about dogs. I sent in my e collars to get them freshened up. I ordered some tracking collars to replace the ones I sold. I almost bought a couple coyote dogs befor I started getting my sight back again. I started seeing a little bit of light just in time.

I left your place going delerious again. I was doing dizzy things like beleiving maybe there really are dogs that could please me.

I found myself thinking stuff like: you probably have culled dogs that were better than the best dog I ever owned. I am still a little dis-oreinted because I still think you have culled dogs that were better than MOST of us will ever own. I am afraid I might always think that. That was some bad salmon.

I am thinking about starting a business selling the dogs that do not meet your standard of perfection, so that a lot of us could experience dogs that are better than anything we ever hunted. The price list might go something like:

Dogs that make it past Dan Edwards Level one testing: so much $$
Dogs that make it past Dan Edwards Level two testing: a lot more $$
Dogs that make it past Dan Edwards Level three testing,
and actually stay at his place till age 2: More money than you ever paid for a dog, but garanteed to be the best dog you could possibly own, and probably the best dog you have ever even seen.

Best part of the business is I could get all those dogs for free because you dont sell the dogs that dont meet your standards.

You are on the right track brother. Keep up the good work, and we might all be witnessing some inovation and rare quality in dog breeding. I have never known anyone with as broad a base of knowledge regarding animal husbandry, hunting dogs and working animals of all types, and with as much passion for dogs that are near perfect in form and function as what you have. AND: YOU ARE A HUNTER! Not just a breedeer.

Zeal without knowledge is dangerous. Zeal with knowledge can be very powerful. You have more of both than anyone I have closely known.

I know if I do ever make it all the way back into dogs, I will be stopping by your place again. And it wont be for the salmon.
david
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Re: here we go

Post by david »

Ike wrote:[ Anybody that thinks lion hunting isn't as challenging a sport as there is with hounds hasn't done much dirt lion hunting.......ike
That's me Ike. I have not done ANY dirt lion hunting. Sounds cool though. Virtually everyone who does seems to have the greatest respect for the work those dogs do. I am sure I would too.

They are very different dogs, for a very different job than any bobcat hunting I have ever done.
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Post by Dan Edwards »

101 Dalmations is a tear jerker thats for sure. :lol: :lol:

You would think that daddy's little girl would keep a secret a little better but oh well. One more thing, trust me David them shiteaters that I feed aint worth killin thats why they get to stay.
az_gogetem
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Re: here we go

Post by az_gogetem »

Ike wrote:[

And I'll have to agree that trailing down a old tom lion track in the dirt is one of the toughest things a hound will ever do.

Anybody that thinks lion hunting isn't as challenging a sport as there is with hounds hasn't done much dirt lion hunting.......

ike
Mr Ike, I could not have said it better myself.
david
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Post by david »

Dan Edwards wrote:, trust me David them shiteaters that I feed aint worth killin thats why they get to stay.
OK right. That is really convincing.

Lets try a little test.

You think of the dog you own that has the worst conformation of all your dogs. Yea, like maybe you are thinking about eliminating him from your program because he .... Hmmm has three chin hairs instead of 5, and maybe holds his tail an inch and a half to low. OK got him in your mind?

that dog right there, your worst, is put together remarkably better than anything I have ever owned. He is like a statue I could stare at for hours.

Ok next test. You think of your slowest dog. You know, the one who got thrown out of the race for five minutes one time last December, and you are still thinking maybe you will have to remove him from your program for it. Ok got him in mind. That dog right there, your slowest, is faster than anything I have ever owned.

Hmmm, let's see. OK, lets think about the dog that is the most crazy and irritating around the place. Yep that one that you had to tell him to quit barking one time when he was 6 months old and the cat walked in front of him. Ok the most unruley dog on your place. He is naturally quiet and calm like the rest of your dogs but, you know, barked that one time.
Your wildest dog, is as calm as the calmest most naturally quiet dog I have ever owned.

OK one more. Your most whimpy and soft dog. You know the one that actually slept inside his house one especially cold night last winter instead of sleeping outside by their houses like the rest of them. I think maybe he paused to let some ice float by befor he plunged into the river one time too.
That one. He is more physically and emotionally deep and unphased and oblivious to the elements than any dog I have owned.

Had enough?

I sure am glad they are not worth killing.

Keep up the good work Dan Edwards
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Post by Dan Edwards »

Somebody who sells pups needs to have you come by their house so you can advertise for them. Shoot with ads like that a fella could make a mint. Thanks David even if you are just bullshittin. :lol:
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Post by Rockcreek »

Who in the hell is Dan Edwards...? Sounds like a queer to me!
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Post by david »

Dan Edwards wrote:Somebody who sells pups needs to have you come by their house so you can advertise for them. Shoot with ads like that a fella could make a mint. Thanks David even if you are just bullshittin. :lol:
Dan, not trying to embarass you or whatever. But I am trying to call a little attention to what you are doing and to the body of knowledge and experience behind what you are doing.

Here's why:

1) sometimes a group of people can get inspired to do better just by the work, knowledge and attitude of a single man. I think that breeders in our genre of dogs could use a little inspiration, a little guidance, and a little tap into the keg of knowledge available in other realms of animal breeding. (I am speaking of domestic animals that are being bred and/or have been bred for performance related tasks.) I personally think your work is inspirational, and it would definately make me want to inch my breeding standards up towards the standards you have for your breeding program. We have been lazy Dan, and it shows.

2) I know you are not motivated by money, and that is another reason
I feel good about calling attention to what you are doing. At the same time I am hoping that maybe some of the great dogs that you have to eliminate from your program because of uncomprimising standards, could maybe be neutered and put into the hands of some for-real hunters. I will repeat myself: I think in many cases, your culls could be someones dog of a lifetime. I dont want you to lower your standards for breeding, yet, I know some of those dogs could make some people real happy, if a few hard hunters knew where to get them. Pass on the expense of neutering to us who end up with the dogs.

3) Sometimes a person really does not understand their own level of giftedness until they are old. I want you to understand that befor you are old. That way, you wont have to constantly be making appologies for saying something that might hurt my feelings or what ever. You can just teach me and others (no matter our age) feeling confident in your knowledge, experience, and giftedness. Dont appologize for your gift. Use it.

One thing I dont think you understand is how much was given to you by your dad. You just know things, a lot of things about animals, hunting and breeding, because your dad was passing that knowledge to you since befor you could walk. I dont think you understand that your starting place, is pretty much beyond my finishing place. I want you to realize that also. You have a lot to thank your dad for.

The only thing that makes me hesitate to let folks know about you is this:
You have a wonderful wife and some amazing kids. I dont want you to give one second of time to your dogs that belong to those four beautiful people. Find the balance my brother. We are watching, and hoping for the best for all of you, and all of us.
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Post by Rockcreek »

Like I said before... Who in the hell is Dan Edwards...? Surely you are not thinking of that dimwitted farmboy from Illinois... The one that is constantly on the phone asking me how he can make his "Coyote" hounds better by breeding to my "Cur" dogs... I guess we must be mistaken... cause I wouldn't give a bucket of bull's piss for any of his top dogs... let alone his cull dogs. Please tell me I am wrong David... this can't be the same Dan Edwards...?

Next thing you know he'll be getting his "gritty" cur dogs from a guy named Dee in TX... :shock: :wink: And David will be getting his "Top" cat dogs from Dan McDonough... :roll:
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Post by Dan Edwards »

Rockcreek wrote:Like I said before... Who in the hell is Dan Edwards...? Surely you are not thinking of that dimwitted farmboy from Illinois... The one that is constantly on the phone asking me how he can make his "Coyote" hounds better by breeding to my "Cur" dogs... I guess we must be mistaken... cause I wouldn't give a bucket of bull's piss for any of his top dogs... let alone his cull dogs. Please tell me I am wrong David... this can't be the same Dan Edwards...?

Next thing you know he'll be getting his "gritty" cur dogs from a guy named Dee in TX... :shock: :wink: And David will be getting his "Top" cat dogs from Dan McDonough... :roll:
You need a good choke slammin boy. :lol: :lol:

Dimwitted? Dont you worry about my dimwitt son. My thoughts might not be the same as others but I still think your a sexy sumbitch.
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Post by Dan Edwards »

Farmboy? You got the wrong fella. Trailer trash is more like it.
david
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Post by david »

Rockcreek wrote:Who in the hell is Dan Edwards...? Sounds like a queer to me!
that's pretty much what I was trying to say.
david
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Post by david »

Rockcreek wrote:Like I said before... Who in the hell is Dan Edwards...? Surely you are not thinking of that dimwitted farmboy from Illinois... The one that is constantly on the phone asking me how he can make his "Coyote" hounds better by breeding to my "Cur" dogs... I guess we must be mistaken... cause I wouldn't give a bucket of bull's piss for any of his top dogs... let alone his cull dogs. Please tell me I am wrong David... this can't be the same Dan Edwards...?

Next thing you know he'll be getting his "gritty" cur dogs from a guy named Dee in TX... :shock: :wink: And David will be getting his "Top" cat dogs from Dan McDonough... :roll:
Speaking of a bucket of bulls piss...

I know you two are boosom buddys, but I gotta tell you, your post reminds me of something from my past:

I worked with developmentally delayed adults for about 10 years. They were institutionalized primarily beacouse they never received propper discipline and nurture as children.

One thing I learned very early is that many of them would rather have negative attention than no attentionat all. So they wouldc do something negative until they got some attention. This type of behavior was usually triggered by something like:

1) One of their peers was receiving some positive attention, and they couldn't stand to let that happen.

2) They had wet or soiled themselves and needed someone to notice and help them clean up.

Kinda funny how easy it is to spot those motivations in people.

Not sure which one is motivating you Mr. Workman, but I'll tell you one thing:

If Dan Edwards ends up using your curs in his long process of finding the dogs he wants in his breeding program, you have some very fine cur dogs Mason, and people shoud sit up and take notice.

There, hopefully you feel better now. If that was not the type attention you needed, keep up the head banging and I'll try to send some one over to help you with that other problem. :cry:
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