Bear Guns

[Mike Leonard]

I have killed bears with everything from a 22 LR pistol on up. Bears are not just bears. so I assume it is the hound run black bear we are talking about. If not I am with Dean all the way on the big bad ass bears 375 H&H . but of the trio of catridges you chose any of them would do fine if you had a handy, easy to pack rifle that you could shoot well. The 270 is ballistacly superior to the 303 only in the area of distance the 303 British is a good close to medium range gun but good ammunitions is rarely found these days. Most is surplus junk that can't be relied upon. The 270 you can have your choice or prekium ammo. The Thutty thutty is a classic and has killed more bears than the other two put together. It is however no magic potion and I know because I have killed dozens of critters with it. I love the saddle rifles and it is good with good ammo and a careful shot, but it kills no better than my 357 Magnum carbine with good stout load. In fact the stubby little 357 with it's fatter bullet seems to thump just a bit more.

45-70, 454, 444, 450 marlin 35 remington all better choices as is the stout loaded 44 magnum.

[kdrchuck]

I've been waiting for Mike's comment on this. One reason being, i knew he would bring up the 357 carbine. Which is a favorite of mine. I will not rely soley on my revolver any more but the carbine pumped full of buffalo bore, is great for WV Blackies.

The revolver might do fine with the buffalo bore but my wrist doesn't like shooting them.

[Mike Leonard]

Are you using the 180 gr. GC buffalo Bore load?
If so I would like to know more. I used 350 Gr. buffalo Bores in my 45 LC hot loads and they penatrate like an anti tank round.

I was fooling around the other day and picked up a box of the new Hornady Lever Revolution 140 gr. poly tips. They advertise 1440 fps. out of a handgun. Well I don't know how fast they are going out of the 20" Carbine barrel but they are flat smoking. I had to lower my rear sight to the bottom to put it on at 100 yards. Where I normally had it with standard 158 Flat points. It was right on at 300 yards! I set some water jugs out there and smacked and they blew apart like they were hit 7 mag. I just need to know what kind of penetration a person can expect with the velocity this produces at close range. They say the bullet is desinged to hold together and I am sure on a deer it would not be much of a problem but a big fat blackie has a lot more substance then most deer. So if anybody out there has heard or used them let me know. It is pretty wild to take this little gun and have the ability if you wish to bump the sight up and smack stuff out there at pretty respectable ranges. I know that is not what it is designed for but it certainly changes the ranges the ranging capabilities of these lever cartridges.

[R Severe]

When we could run bear here, I carried a contender in 35 rem.
Sure liked the job it did on bruins. I don't ever remember having to use a follow up shot when packing it with the dogs.
I did have a bit of trouble once using some barnes bullets, they didn't expand at all and I got to practice how fast I could lode a single shot.
This was a bear on the ground without dogs.

[three rivers catahoulas]

Those Hornady bullets penatrate awesome, and have the most uniform expansion I have ever seen. I did some ballistic tests here a few months ago. I had a big steer that goy cancer eye real bad and the meat was fevered, so I used his hind quarters and shoulders for bullet tests. I did these tests at 100 yds and 50 yds, The Buffalo Bore bullets have the worst expansion and they lose almost half of there weight, the Hornady XTP JHP 300 gr held almost 100% of there weight and the LeverEvalution Bullets held 100% of the weight and had bone shadering penatration, Mind you this steer was 5 years old and each quater weighed around 350 lbs, All went through & through and into the stump behind it, But we came to the idea that Hornady has way better ammo then any one eles. This was in a .444 Marlin, the Buffalo Bore was factory ammo, and so was the LeverEvalution, The XTP's were loaded into Hornady Cases, Win Large Riffle primers and 78.5 gr and H322 powder. The powder used in the LeverEvalution ammo is the same powder that Nitro uses in the Nitro Express ammo 15.8 gr of Nitro( Ka Boom). And I tell ya what I shot a hog last year just for shits and grins with a buddys 470 Nitro Express, Ya wanna talk about recoil, that thing liked to take my head off and at $400.00 for a box of ten. I just dont see the need for somthing that big. You could hit a big boar griz in the toe and kill'em LOL Oh and the the bullet was a 1025 gr TBSH and it was a 250 lb boar hog, well 150 after I shot him LOL. But I would rather shoot and I trust in the Hornady's alot more then the Buffalo Bore, and the have cycleing problems in lever guns.

[Timberhound]

gotta go with my new weapon, 338 remington ultra mag XCR, 4.5-14x50 leupold VXL, havent killed any bears yet but works pretty good on gophers!

[BIG J]

45-70 GOV THEN. 450 MARLIN NOW

[Mike Leonard]

TRC

Lol! You are crazy just like me! Lol! Cancer eyed cows and such are great test mediun, hat's off to you. Stiff jello is one thing,give me hide,flesh and bone.

I will go buy another box of them Hornady's and sight Little Medicine 357 in tight with them.
Thanks!

[three rivers catahoulas]

Mike,
He severed his purpose LOL, I didnt want to let it go to waste and didn't want my dogs to get sick, thats what I killed him with was a .357 lever gun with those Hornady rounds. I tell ya what they sure do shoot flat, and I miss spoke the XTP's lost almost all of there weight, but they left one hell of a hole. The entrance hole was big enough to put a pop can in. I dont know if you reload, but those Hornady XTP bullets are great too, I really like'em when shootin over dogs, it went all the way through the hind quarter but only about 1/2" into the ol rotted log behind it. And the Hornady's shoot alot strtaighter then the Buffalo Bore, The Buffalo Bore are loaded way too hot and it messes with the acuracy, short range it dont really matter but after 100 yds or so they start gettin out of control. Thats all my wife will shoot out of her 450 Marlin are the Hornady's, I wish I could buy the bullets it would be alot cheapper that way.

[nmplott]

I plan on trying my 7mm wsm this season.

[three rivers catahoulas]

My cusin has a 300 wsm, he just had it all done up, with a lija 30" 1-10 twist barrel ,short throat reemed, the bullets he relaods sit 1/1000th from the lands and grooves, we both held a 5 shot pattern at 500 yds and they were all tuchin. I did the same thing to my .25 wssm. I have never shot a 7mm short mag but I have shot my grandads 7mm Rem Mag and its a flat shootin S.O.B, I like that 270 wsm to. Try the Hornady A-Max bullets for your 7 Mag, I think you'll find'em to be the most acurate, They're way better then the Winchester Super X, they seem to be more consistenly loaded.

[kdrchuck]

Mike,

The 357 bullets i gave up in my Revolver were some 158 gr soft points of some sort. That was the point when i realized how important terminal ballistics are. The buffalo bore i got are (i believe) 140gr with Gold dot fully jacketed hollow points. I haven't killed anything with it yet. I don't even like shooting them out of my short barrelled revolver. My brother has the M92 in 357 and i havn't tried them through it yet. He has always done well with it and the winchester 125 grain Protecters?I think. I did clay test with the Gold dot Buffalo bore and was impressed. Good whieght retention, good expansion. They may blow apart out of the rifle, but i doubt it.

However, I tried the Gold dot bullets in the 454 carbine, and was not impressed. They don't have near the Jacket the 357 bullets do. The 454 GD have a good deal of open lead in the point where the 357 are fully jacketed. 454 Gold Dots at 30 feet the jackets seperated and it lost a lot of mass. 300 gr XTP for the 454, and the 44 mag.

[Mike Leonard]

I have used the XTP's for years in reloading. One of the neatest little loads ever with it was the 85 gr. XTP in a 32 H&R magnum sixshooter. Chaser and I both bought one of the little Smith and Wesson Kit Guns when they first came out in this caliber. We had El Paso Saddlery make us up some really slick shoulder rigs for these and we packed them for years. That litte 32 H&R would kill a big tom lion as quick as the 357 or 41 and was fun to shoot. Also on a bobcat it wouldn't tear a big old hold because of less resisitance.Chaser still has his mine went home with an ex wife.
The new 327 Ruger Magnum may be very much the same gun.

On the long range rifle side I have tried a number of the Ultra sized cartridges. The 300 Ultra Mag. 7MM shooting Times Western, &MM Remington Ultra Mag. 300/378 Weatherby ( OUCH!) and the 338 Ultra Mag and used a 340-Weatherby that is as good as any of them as well.

Most of it is Gunwriters fuel to sell the gun rags to the buying public and help arms dealers so they can get a free be rifle and a hunt thrown in for promoting them. As Craig boddinton said awhile back none of them will outperform the age old 300 Weatherby, in real day terms. these few feet a second here or few pounds of energy just don't mean anything on a real animals that comes down to bullet placement and bullet design. So it is fun to try all this stuff but in laymen's terms it don't add up to a stck of wet newspapers. Most shooter may think they are pretty salty shots, but when it boils right down to it it takes a lot of shooting under a lot of conditions to really know where you are going to hit anything past 300 yards with a great big old loud bellering loud kicking rifle. Military snipers with ice in their veins laugh at some of the rifles these guys carry trying to assasinate a critter at 500 yards.

Go to (Best of the West Shooting beyond beleif) and check it out. Now a lot of misses are not shown but these guys knocking the critters off at 800,900, and 1000 yards are not using a Ultra Mag. They use the plain old 7MM Remington Magnum with a long Berger bullet and these guns are tuned beyond belief. If they are doing this long killing ask yourself why are they not choosing a more powerful round?

[three rivers catahoulas]

Well as far as long range is concerend 500+ yds. I'll chosse my Tactical Riffles M-40A-5 chambered in a .338 Lapua. 700 Ren action milled to match spec 1/1000th a 31" 1-9 lija composite barrel, McMillun A-5 4 pieace adjustable stock. machine ported H&H muzzle break. Toped with a sheapard 12-24-50 range finding scope and a 9" harris bipod and single stick on the rearend. I can drive nail all day t 1000yds with this riffle up to 15 knot cross winds without changin a thing.

[lepcur]

I bought one of the first guide guns when they first came out in 444 and it is ported and I wouldn't trade it for anything. Last year I had a shooter for bear but when the dogs put it in a culvert pipe and we were within 5-7 feet of it the guy was so shook up he couldn't get the job done so I killed it with the lever rev. bullet and did the job, that was the only exp. I have with them but the bullet held together. Mike