Track direction (revisited)

[catdogs]

Getting a new computer next week and cleaning the old one out. Stumbled across this thread I had saved from a few years back and thought I'd post it again. It was one of my favorites. It got a bit jumbled in all the cut and pasting but its all here.



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In Harley Shaws book Soul among Lions, He says "Few lion dogs can tell the direction of movement of a lion from scent alone." He also says "coon hounds and bear hounds seldom err in track direction."

Do you guys think hounds can tell the direction of a track by scent alone? Do you agree with Harley?
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Harley or scientists can prove that statement I will stick with the notion that a hound runs scent from cold to hot, whether the scent molecules are on the ground or air borne particules they are using there nose and sometimes there tongue.

I enjoyed reading Harley's book very much and without a doubt the man has committed many years in the field of studying the cougar of modern day but that does not mean he is right on all points.

I'm not saying some hounds do not site run a cold end of a track but I have to go with the nose as being the main factor in which direction they choose to take the track.

Case in point, how many times has anyone witness a hound loss a track only to circle the area and re-strike the track heading in the right direction?

How many times have you turned a hound loose on a snow filled track?

How many times have you seen a hound run a track 10 yards down wind of the track they are chasing?
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When I was first getting into hounds I asked my mentor and good buddy, "how in the world can a hound cross a trail and know which dirrection to run the track?" He told me they look to see which way the toes are pointing:)


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[QUOTE]He told me they look to see which way the toes are pointing


Thats a theory, but I don't buy that one for a second. Lots of times on dry ground or snowed in tracks they can't even see the toes.
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I can honestly say that in 12 years of running dry ground bears and the past 9 years running lions in both dirt and snow, I've never had a dog run a track backwards that I knew of. I did watch my old Redbone run a track backwards for 50 yards on two occations but in both instances he turned right around and headed the right direction without any help from me. So I can't tell you how they do it but they seem to be able to figure it out. I've never read this guys book but in my experiences, I'd have to say the dogs can figure it out.
A few days ago, I turned out on a Tom track and the dogs took it down into a canyon. After 45 min. the dogs were heading right back up to where I turned them out. I got back to the spot the same time the dogs showed up there thinking they were running it backwards. I looked down and there was a smoking track right over top of his track made the day before.
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Do Not Ever EVER UNERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A HOUNDOGS NOSE!!!

Any animal that can smell a day old track from the back of a pick up driving 10 or 20 miles per hour has abilities that no human scientist will ever understand!!
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Harley Shaw conducted one of the most extensive lion studies ever done. He hunted with George Goswick in Arizona for the project. Apparently, George is one of AZ's most famous lion hunters. Anyway, Harley says that as soon as Georges dogs would strike a track, they would immediately get off their horses and make sure they were not taking the back track, which in about half the time they were.

Just find the subject interesting. Like mpritchard said, some things no humans will ever understand.

Personally, my hounds seem to take a track the right direction most of the time, but on occasion they will take a back track.
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Them hounds of mine will take a bear track backward every time if conditions are right. Especially for a hot nosed dog. On dry ground with a red hot track I have to be real careful. Wet ground is usually no problem, unless the strike dog is on the leash or under pressure by the pack hounds.
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Ya'll have better dogs than i have. Been cat hunting for 26 years and have never had a cat or lion dog that would not back a cat or lion. Have started big toms and trailed him back to where he was born! HA!________________________________________
Run tracks backwards seems to be things younger dogs do more then well seasoned lion dogs. Buddy had an older dog we would put in the track backwards on a snow track once in a while he wouldnt go 10 ft turn around give us a dirty look and take it the right way. I dont know what idicators he was using to know which way it was going weather it was the scent location in the track or if he was looking for toes but you couldnt fool this dog. We usually line em out and havent itentionally tried to get a dog to run on backwards in a long time but have seen enough lion tracks circle back track and play all kinds of games to know that seasoned lions dogs can tell which direction a track is going in short order. jmo dgarrett
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[QUOTE]Have started big toms and trailed him back to where he was born! HA!


Least you ain't scared to admit it. I too have taken a few into last week.
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My experience is that the dogs seem to start to track in the direction that they are already moving. It is true that if they go backwards and trail out that they will go back to the hottest track and go the other direction. But I don't think that if you dumped a dog out on a track that it would know the right direction by smell right then.

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What a great thread! And again a lot of information. I have seen hounds that would fight you to take the back track..ever wonder why? Hmmm..maybe that lion just came off a kill and the further he goes the more scent wears off, never know, dogs don't smell in generalities they smell in milliparts. No not a lot of trouble on bear or coon, or even bobcat where scent has to be fresh and still a lot of airborne particulite, but the cougar who leaves a heavy , low and rather lasting trail, has the record for turning dogs around. Have I seen hounds that seldom backtrailed? Yes, I have . but they were usually very gifted dogs in a lot of categories. I am not talking about good track dogs althogether, just a lot of things, you old hound doggers will know what I mean, it is a thing that is a little hard to explain, but when you see it you will recognize it.

scent it is a perplexing thing to creatures that are very challenged in this area(humans for example), but then again , hound people like challenges, don't they?

I'm telling u its the toenails!

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I have never chased a Lion, but if I was a dog......I would look for the direction of there toenails!*B@+

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My Border Collie has not started lions yet (thank god!!) but he's one cracker jack 'ote dog and he tracks forwards .... backwards and BAMB ........ goes forwards on hot tracks every time! It's real obvious that it's the scent but then it's not lions either ............ just my .02 worth ...

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This is all very interesting to me. For some reason, my experiences have been just about the exact opposite of what everyone is describing. We hunt bobcat on bare ground by rigging so we don't get to see which direction the track is going and I've never had a problem with the dogs going the wrong way. If it is a red hot track, once in awhile they will go about 50 yards or so before turning it around. The older the track, the quicker they figure it out. I've seen bobcats in the road and come back 10-12 hours later and they strike and jump off the box and head the right way without a hitch. When I'm bear hunting with the same dogs, if they hit a red hot bear, I have had them go a couple hundred yards before they figure it out and turn around and again, the older the track, the easier time they have. I'd say that 95% of the time they start in the right direction and stay with it but the times that they do start wrong, it seems like the older it is the quicker they turn around. I've never known why, but I always figured that with a hotter track, there was more scent and they had to go farther before the scent thinned down. Because we rarely get to help our dogs go the right way, I've always relied on one or two dogs to get the track lined out and I've always had similar results. Anyone have any idea why my experiences would be so different? Anyone had similar results?
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Mike, this is a great thread and i really enjoy hearing all different tales.
You seem to hunt the same way i do, off of mules on dry ground so we have very similar experiences. anyone that thinks they can't learn something knew everytime they turn loose is doomed for failure A big tom spanked me and my dogs so bad this year its almost embaressing if it was'nt so funny Started a hot track in a narrow canyon going the right way wind blowing about 25-30 miles an hour. dogs ran about 1/4 up the canyon and started coming straight back to me. checked tracks,going the right way,went about a quarter and started coming back to me again checked tracks and the lion had walked in my tracks. Don't know how he got past me without me seeing him. did this two more times and there was so much scent and with the wind blowing sso hard the dogs did'nt know which way to go and i coud'nt help them because by that time there was tracks going everywher. rough country and i tried to make a circle to find where he left. never did. Great lion! lots of fun. Hats off to him as several people have run him and he is still there.
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this idea is different than the general oppinion, but how many of you start your dogs on tracks the right way, and then expect them to rig and go on the right track. Down here, we usually start them and sometimes have to free cast froma strike or something else. I have noticed that when people train hounds on figuring it out everytime ( i know this is just common sense) on their own, they are likely to be able to start it every time on their own.

An example:
A buddy of mine sold a plott to a guy a few miles from me. The guy hunted him the whole season. At the end of the season the man called my buddy and asked him how he trained dogs to take the forward track everytime. the guy told him that the dog simply would not take the back track..Well my buddy told him that i aint ever pushed a dog out of the box with the intent to help him out. I find the track, the dogs start the track, and if he cant figure out which way hes going, i dont need him..

It may sound like i made that up, but its the truth. Just something to think about. Under pressure, a dog might slip up, but if hes trained to figure out every track on his own, i guess he might would be able to take the forward track every time.
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that happens now and again, and it sure will get you to pulling your hair out...It has been in spot like this that often the real drifting type dog that works off the wind will excell and go to body scent alone and nail that cat. Those lions will slip behind you around you and all sorts of things at times. I have also had them hole up to where a dog just about has to bite them to get them to move out.

As I said I was referring to lion scent for it has some strange properties to it.Now I haven't had nearly as much expereince with bobcats although I catch a few, and still contend they are the most challenging of all tree game on the bare ground. I have to admit to the fox hunters that don't agree ,I don't know one thing about fox hunting with trree dogs. My dogs run them till I break them off, and even then they still love to sneak out on a grey fox track now and then.But the running circling , hiding lion is not all that common, but I think with bobcats it is very common, and when they start that stuff I have found the dogs that smoke the trail off the wind, and knock the air out of the cat will do better than the foot track followers.

When you begin to envision the actual scent trail left by the animals as not a dotted line of tracks but rather a misty trail of vapor in various widths and densitiy you will get a better idea of the problems encountered by hounds at times.

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That last paragraph hit home!!! Wow, never thought of it like that........What you just said is an epipheny! Thanks so much!!!!! One of the best things I have ever heard in the dog world!

This may sound insane, but here goes!!!!!!! I often look at the ground after a rain, On sidewalks, driveways, ETC. What seems to be flat apparently not as some spots are still wet and some spots dry up quick!!!!! Same thing looking at Mountains, where there is shade and where the sun hits. Now, with all this in concideration with humidity, wind, barametric pressure,lack of rain, lots of rain,snow ETC. It baffels me how some dogs can be so consistant, and make it look so easy under all conditions. We have spoke about how dogs have a 6th sence IE. knowing when we are getting ready to go hunting without seeing us in the house, just knowing what we are thinking without speaking! So in conclusion.......I believe that some dogs are just gifted with the ability to read game in a way that is beyong scent alone! Natural predator/prey!!

The mysteries of life are sometimes better unknown, if not, the world to me would get boring quick!!!!!

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Hi Mike, I had a dog like that in this race and if the wind had not been whipping so hard i have no dought there would have been a different outcome. I hope! ha! Never can tell. All i know is he whipped the hell out of us and the dogs at that time. Gotta luv him. And God willing i will have another run at him!
Best,
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Hi big dog, You got it! There is nothing in the hound world like dry groung lion hunting! nothing! And as long as people try to compare it to anything else they will never get good at it. and the people that are good at it are blessed to be at the right place at the right time with the the right conditions and the right dogs.
That is my humble opinion and has nothing to do with bear, coon, bobcat or snow conditions.
God bless America that we can still enjoy this!

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Well said bigdog. That is exactly why I think the theory that a dog looks for toes is not valid because there are times dogs can't even see the track. Nor is the one where a dog runs a scent trail from cold to hot. Because of variations in climate, temp, terrain, etc. There are times when a back track can run hotter the farther they go on it. Maybe the back track just hit an open hillside and the sun is releasing more scent. Likewise, at times I think the forward track can run colder as the dogs follow it. The sun comes up, starts drying things out and removing scent from the trail.

There seems to be a hung jury on whether dogs can tell the direction of a track at all. Some say they just get lucky. Who knows. Others believe that it is in fact something a good dog can distinguish. For those that think a dog can, do you have any thoughts on how they are doing it?

Harley Shaws theory was this. In his observations, coon dogs and bear dogs seldom err in track direction but few lion dogs could tell the direction by scent alone. His theory is that both coons and bears have "wedge" shaped feet. This would put more scent in the front or toe area of the track, therefore indicating direction of travel. Cat tracks, being rounded, hence relatively undifferentiated distribution of scent within the track.

Yet another theory:
According to Milo Pearsall, the author of "Scent - training to track for search and rescue", he suggests that a dog can tell the direction of only one track by where the "scurf" scent is in relation to the track scent. He believes there are 2 scent trails or two parts of the scent trail. One is of course the scent left in the track itself. The second is the "scurf" scent. Scurf is "body debris" that falls from a person or animal. It can include skin cells, hair, dandruff, etc. We naturally shed millions of skin cells everyday, this scurf is "jarred" loose each time we take a step and because of forward momentum falls in front of our tracks. Most of his studies have been done with humans and blood hounds. He conducted an experiment. He put a man in a "space suit" or total body isolation suit. He had the man walk a trail. His dogs could pick up no scent. He then had the man take off his hood and mask exposing only his head. The man walked a trail. The dog could easily follow the scent though, he quartered considerably. Here, the dog is following the scurf scent. Next, the experimenter took off only his boots and left a similar trail. Of course the dog followed the trail with ease.
He first questioned how a dog can determine direction of travel by watching his dog first start a track (this was with bloodhound on dryground where no track was visible). It seemed the dog would smell the first track and then know exactly where to "look" for the second track. He concluded that the track scent is the strongest but where the scurf falls in relation to the track can at least help indicate direction of travel.

Quite frankly, I have no idea how they do it. These are just theories that are "food for thought".

The other thing we need to remember, is that, not only is a dogs nose much much better than ours, but a much larger portion of their brain is dedicated to the olfactory sense.
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Thanks cat dog. Trying to learn till i die! hopefully trailing a lion! HA

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This is one awesome thread.....thanks so much fellows!!!

Paul

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catdog,

excellent material and the scurf scent theory is excactly what Montague Stevens of (Meet Mr. Grizzley) fame said more than a century ago.He pointed out to companions as they were searching for lost and stolen stock, the bloodhounds didn't have to follow track for track they simply smelled the vapor trail of scent , particulite , skin, hair dander and such, and went off for miles and found the sheep. I thought it was most interesting in Persalls study how covering and uncovering particular elements of the body or clothing could change the effects and efforts of the trailers.


One thing about it a person could never exaust the subject of scent and trailing, and conditions, maybe that is just another part of what makes following the hounds so much fun.

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jcathunter wrote:
... Because we rarely get to help our dogs go the right way, I've always relied on one or two dogs to get the track lined out and I've always had similar results. Anyone have any idea why my experiences would be so different? Anyone had similar results?



CatHunter, you are dead on... at least in my experience on bears. The fresher the track, the tougher time they have in getting it right. A cold track is easy.

I think another factor is how much pressure is on the dog. When your start dog has another one with him, he is less likely to turn around when he needs to. Put a dog on a leash, and try to start him the right direction has never worked for me. What has worked is letting the dog, (as you do Jcathunter), figure it out for himself. A dog gets good at it after awhile...you just gotta give him a chance. Yeah, I know its tuff sometimes, especially on dogs that ain't 100% broke.

Like I said before, never underestimate the power of a hound dogs nose!!


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I have not seen to many dogs have problems with dogs taking a bear out in the wrong direction ( have had them go a short ways on a hot lion track) . I have tried to not on purpose mind you get the dogs going in the direction that I thought the bear went only to have the dogs run around me and those tracks were absolutely smoking . I have done this in very dry conditions and wet and rainy conditions . There was a time I used to look for tracks but I no longer look till after I let the dogs go I have been wrong to many times and figure why waste time maybe I will get lucky and it will climb right off

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mpritchard wrote:
Them hounds of mine will take a bear track backward every time if conditions are right. Especially for a hot nosed dog. On dry ground with a red hot track I have to be real careful. Wet ground is usually no problem, unless the strike dog is on the leash or under pressure by the pack hounds.

..........mpritchard i think i been to da same place u have a few times my 4 year old plott has took me on some backtracts thank god i didnt get butthurt over it lol.

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[QUOTE]excactly what Montague Stevens of (Meet Mr. Grizzley) fame said more than a century ago.


He was quite a houndmsen. Way ahead of his time. He essentially conducted the same experimant as Pearsall, though he did it by putting a man on a horse to eliminate the track scent.

Pearsall also documented where dogs could follow the trail of a coon that had swam across a pond. Here again, apparently following scurf scent on top of the water. If that is not amazing enough, he also had a NewFoundland that would retreive rocks he threw into a pond of similar rocks. The dog would retreive the rock he had thrown in. Can their be a scent trail underwater? He ends with the statement, "It is maddening to know that this dog will never tell me how he does it!"

Great thread, I appreciate all the opinions.
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There have been some studies done by geneticists that indicate that backtracking, babbling on the back track, running the wrong direction or whatever you want to call it is mostly inherited. According to the studies , it is inherited as a recessive trait.
There is some evidence that backtracking can be an aquired trait as well. It would be if you run a young impressionable dog quite a bit with old wrong way bozo and they pick up the trait.
What I've seen out of backtrackers is they backtrack on whatever game they are on. One's I've seen back track on cold bear tracks just as bad as cold lion if they are of equal age and difficulty.
I've seen entire strains of dogs that seldom if ever do any kind of backtracking, hot or cold. I've also seen the opposite.
Personally I just cull a dog that backtracks much, but that is an individual decision one will have to make for themselves.

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- i cant see tracks at all on frozen ground or crust- or rock-i dont think a hound can either- -a smart hound does use his eyes when he can- but its not long before hes going to stick his nose in that track to confirm it- -- - colder nosed hounds will usually backtrack more- a little backtracking might be the price u have to pay for a real good cold trailer-- i suspect harley was using colder nosed hounds to trail up some very cold tracks- - dogs have a tendency to backtrack the coldest and the very hottest tracks- its the hot ones that drive me nuts - i hate a dog thats real bad to backtrack but i cant think of a real good hound that i hunted with alot that i NEVER saw backtrack- - i think if u want coldtrailers u have to put up with some backtracking-- ive seen plenty of dogs that never backtracked -- but they only ran fresh tracks in good conditions-- there is no shortage of hot nosed dogs-- pete




[QUOTE]""If that is not amazing enough, he also had a NewFoundland that would retreive rocks he threw into a pond of similar rocks.""


i like that one-- i had a mixed breed hound pup that did that -
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[horshur]

My female libby always backtracked..that might sound bad but she also always sorted it out as well and took it hard...particularly on hotter tracks.
It did not seem to matter whether you put her on it and walked her down a ways and let her go she would take it then swap ends and take it backward however 5 -10 minutes later she would be flying the right way.
Apparently she just liked to cover all the angles.

It was always good for a laugh particulary with someone else a little impatient....what the hell is she doing? just wait..how long? I don't know...here she comes!!!!

I rarely mess with sign i don't think we have a hope on..if I did suppose it would be a different deal..All I know is when she took it backwards we usually caught up with the cat. A good omen!

[catdogs]

I think its in Dale Lee's book that he says his hounds would take a cat track in which ever direction the dogs are traveling at the time they find the track, whether it be the right or wrong direction. I had a back track race that happened not too long ago, that should not have happened. Them dogs never did turn around.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Last week I let my 12 month old walker out of her kennel, when I went to put her back sheand my dog Butty took off full out 30 miles an hour around the corner of a hill. they had winded a bear and were hot on its back track. Seconds later they both hit the brakes and came back as fast as they left. 400 yards later they had a big boar treed. this was amazing to me as the speed they were running was full out and they figured out the track without slowing down. Mind you it doesn't take a lot to impress me and that down right amazed me.

[bluedog4]

The facts of scent from any critter on any type of ground dry, wet, snow is layed the same way all over the world. Think of a beaver swimming in the water, the wake he is creating is distributed in a V shape, going out and away from the original track, Thus indicating the direction the critter is traveling. This how all traveling critters of the world leave directional scent. Good hounds know this and will continue to circle and drift a track until they have the direction dialed in. Thats why I only send my most seasoned hound on an old track, once I know he has the direction figured out I will turn the others hounds loose. Often even on a hot track my best hound wont trust the other hounds for direction he has to be convince himself that he is going in the right direction with a few circles.

[AZDOGMAN]

anyone who sais there dogs wont take a track backwards is a moron. Dogs cant tell which way an animal is walking.

[catdogs]

Dogs cant tell which way an animal is walking.

If that is true, why do most dogs, after taking a back trail, figure it out and turn around??

[Spanky]

AZ I do not think anyone is saying dogs will not take a back track but I do believe somehow through mother nature and intelligence they do learn to know what direction a animal is traveling no different then you learning how to walk when you were 1 year old. I believe with each track they are put on and each tree they make they learn this, its a matter of intelligence. IMO

[bluedog4]

AZ I hope the Moron statement wasnt directed to me, HA ha!!
Lets all do a test. Using Mike Leonards scent training method!
Oh and buy the way I have read most of Mikes post on here and I think we are blessed to have him share his expert advice on Big game hounds and hunting.
Brady made a very good statment on Mikes training method so I will repeat for the test.
Using Mikes training method do a drag in a staright line for 1/2 a mile.
Introduce the dogs to the scent at a 1/4 mile and turn them loose then let us see which way everybodys dogs will run the track.
I will do my test this afternoon.
Mike, Brady, AZ, Spanky you guy have to do the test as well.
Looking forward to the results.

[Grzyadms4x4]

This is a great topic and I am glad that you brought it back Catdogs.

Hell I've done the test lots of times and if the dog has a little bit of know how or instinct they figure out that the scent gets weaker on the back track. If they couldn't then how do most canines survive in the wild?

[Trueblue]

How many of you guys think that running fake stuff for dogs that are already running and treeing the desired game,is a bad idea ?

[Vance M.]

How many of you guys think that running fake stuff for dogs that are already running and treeing the desired game,is a bad idea ?

A lot of dogs that are all ready going wont pay any attention to a drag.

[AZDOGMAN]

i think dogs will eventualy figure it out but depending on the track it could be miles before the scent noticably gets weaker. I mean when im cold trailing a lion i can go a long ways before the dogs start moving it faster. I have trailed lions when the weather was warm during the day and it gets hot and starts to dissapate the scent and the dogs start to make more loses and the scent gets worse till they lose it and they dont turn around and go back 5 miles and try to run it the other way. Isnt that the same as running backwards the scent slowly gets worse. As far as the theory about the bears and coons feet being shaped different so it leaves scent different i think is bogus. Im a firm believer that the pad on the bottom part of the animals foot leaves no scent. the scent comes from the animals body. we were trailing a lion one day in muddy conditions and a guy there said the dogs were having a hard time trailing because mud was sticking to the bottom of the lions feet so he wasnt leaving any scent. I thought it was funny. The moron statement wasnt directed at anyone sorry i guess i spend too much time in the cage listening to the village idiots arguing about stupid things didnt mean to bring that mantality out here. my 2 cents

[AZDOGMAN]

i agree about the drag, i have taken good lion dogs and puppys out on a lion scent drag and the older dogs didnt even act interested.

[bluedog4]

Well I did the test this afternoon using Mikes training method both my trained hounds hit that track and run it the way I dragged it when they got to the end (where I put the scent roller in the bag) They just kept circling looking for the outgoing track.
I hunt real hard country because of the chinnok weather condition, Start a fresh track on fresh snow in the bottom of a shaded valley only to have the hounds come to a dead end on a totally melted south facing slop. The scent is vurtually gone. My hounds dont turn around because the scent is stronger on the shady side of the mountain they just keep working that melted off slop until they get through it. Now after saying that it hasn't always been this way, when Buck was young it was much quicker for me to walk the melted off south facing slop find the out going track and call him over rather than wait half a day for him to figure it out. Graet post!!