culling pups???

michael.magorian · Post by **michael.magorian** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:10 am

I have yet to ever even go to a competition hunt. The trainers and breeders I am talking about have created their own line of hounds and are recognized by kennel clubs, some have even written books about the subject. So what line of hounds do you hunt?

Larry Roberts · Post by **Larry Roberts** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:06 am

If thay dont show anything at all by a year,i cull them.But if you read more then you hunt you should you should wait 2 to 5 years

ChazK · Post by **ChazK** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:10 pm

I've seen a 1 year old dog bay a hog in the wild, right in his face, dropping slobber on his nose. Would catch anything under 200. Put him in the bay pen and he would just sit down. Had no intrest. I've seen one pup culled. He was about 7 months old. He would do nothing though. Wouldn't pack to the other dogs, hardly would bark at the hog when all the other dogs were baying. The dog wouldn't leave your side. Acted more as a pet then as a hunting dog. Unless there a specific and hardcore reasons to why the dog isn't performing after about a year in a half, then cull.

onalimb · Post by **onalimb** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:44 pm

Kurt, as long as they're progressing, they come back home. All I was saying, is there is a reason to cull at a young age, and if one shows no desire at all at 6 months; Like their parents did, I do not keep them. I will also cull any real shy ones before that if they are healthy, and just have such a timid streak as to let the others drag them around. Some look great on a cage at 6 months, only to end up not cutting it later, same way with anybodies. But I whole heartedly disagree with a blanket statement, that there is no reason to cull out until a dog is over a year. I have had and seen to many pups at less than a year, along side the old dogs, get torn up and go back for more, and it not phase them a bit. That's what I want to build around. In some cases I could be breeding to those dogs while others are still waiting to see if theirs are even going to hunt.

If anybody goes back over my posts on this board, I have told guys to not make decisions based on what others say, but make them based on what the sire and dam did at the same age. But here I catch crap for doing it myself. I just wonder why anybody keeps a line that would show you nothing until such a late date. Life is short. It gives me something to do and laugh at while I can't hunt.

Chaz and Larry, I believe you both, and also believe you make up your own minds, and are not told what to do by a book.

onalimb · Post by **onalimb** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:01 pm

TRUE BLUE, I deleted my reply to your last post and answered your PM, it was never my intent to offend anyone of the Christian faith, and I did misunderstand your message. My apologies to you, or anyone offended, by that one statement.

pat_kemp · Post by **pat_kemp** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:12 pm

I can agree with onalimb, i start my dogs pretty early also about 6 months and iam not going to wait around for two years, and feed a dog. when i could actualy get a dog thats worth feeding. i like my dogs to catch on pretty quick see ill give them to a year and a half probably max before i cull. yeah i know they are not going to take a track from start to finish. but if they want to stay with my pack then byt that age they will be making the trees and at least trying to hunt for the track. Like he said you guys that give them 5 or 6 years and have hope for them to turn out thats just an excuse, and always will be. iam not starting any fights or nething like that i just put my opinion in same as everyone else. becuase everyone else has there own ways. well happy hunting to everyone.

Pat

michael.magorian · Post by **michael.magorian** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:10 pm

I am not trying to say keep a worthless hound around for 5 years, all I am trying to say is that you can't pick out a worthless one at 6 months. If you do cull at 6 months just because you don't think the are progressing quick enough, then you are no houndsmen by any definition you want to put with the word.

Oh, and Preston, if you are so much smarter and such a better breeder than many of the guys that started the famous bloodlines of today, then why has no one ever heard of the Joy line of hounds?

reed · Post by **reed** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:09 pm

I guess I don't get why anyone would criticize another for when they cull a dog. Isn't it their pup/dog and they can choose what makes them happy?

As for MM's comment about the most popular lines, are those the only good dogs out there? Are they popular because they are the best out there or did someone do a pretty good job of marketing the name? Were/are those people the best houndsman or better salesman? Who are these great lines you are talking about anyway? It is pretty easy to make a statement but at least have the info to back it up.

What is your definition of a houndsman anyway? Who made you the grantor of the title? Are you yourself a houndsman or someone that hunts with dogs? What are your qualifications?

As for Prestons 6 month rule I think thats a pretty good rule. I like to see that a pup is doing something by that age. I think at 6-7 months old the pups should be wanting to go with the older dogs and be able to do some trailing themselves. Do I expect them to put it all together and do it all at that age no but they should have some kind of desire to do it.

For example I have two 3 mo old pups at the house now. I haven't showed them any critters yet but I do set up drags and other hunting type scenerios. One of them is putting short drags together and finishing them. The other is being a pup and just following the other pup. No number two is not a cull yet and number one is not a great dog but I know which one I am more happy with. He will probably get more opurtunity as well. Number one wants to do what the big dogs are doing, he shows a lot of intelegence at a young age in being able to figure things out. I am pretty confident that he will go with the big dogs in a couple of months when he has the ability. The other one at this point who knows. Oh yea and both are from the same line of dogs you more than likely have never heard of.

Nolte · Post by **Nolte** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:53 pm

No one method/evaluation is going to be right for each circumstance. It's just such a broad brush to try an paint with.

For instance you are NOT making the cut on a dog to see if it's a cat dog in WI at 6 mos. No way, No how. It's just not possible with the amount of experience you can give them.

Now, conversely you should be able to see if it's got a little bit of fire by 8 mos on a coon. But firing at a critter is a far cry from making a dog. It's a promising start, but not much more.

For instance my buddy had a young that was looking OK. It wasn't firing on a critter, but it would go with the other dogs, open on track and even run it's own track. BUT it would NOT tree, both parents lock down tree dogs. So he gave it to another buddy of ours, cause he was low on dogs and liked the dog. The dog ran through nearly the whole bear season, still no tree. This was from countless times of getting the bear moving and letting it come down. As soon as it would hit the ground, fire up on it. The dog was on about it's last go and made another tree, this time fire up on lock down. No real reason why, just did. The only reason this dog was allowed to get this much time is it made nearly every race and was up front. So after countless dinking around this dog finally make a workable dog.

Now in my mind this is a dog that SHOULD NOT ever be bred. Just like a LOT of other dogs.

This one line of dogs that we've had is similiar to this, except it works a little different. The dogs do OK when they are young. Show promise and do most of the basic stuff fine, just not great. Then at about 5 they just keep getting better and better with everything except speed. Super start dogs from dogs you would think were just medium at best just a year before. But then again we've had a few that just never got better. The whole trick to that deal is they've got to do enough to stick around that long. If they don't, I'm not going to wait. I'm always on the look out for something better.

michael.magorian · Post by **michael.magorian** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:02 pm

At least you said the word "pup" reed. These are not dogs they are puppies that know next to nothing yet. You can call it marketing or you can call them well bred and well trained. How many lines would you like me to talk about and how many different trainers? Original Duncans, original camerons, Maple Hill Farm, anything from Hans Wagner (Nightrider and Wagner lines), Stylish, Sackett Sr., Upson, Black Hoss, Coma, Hammer, House, Banjo, anything that Schenker bred, Big Johnson, and I could continue. You want to talk about true houdsman how about guys like Bill Boatman, Lester Nance, H.R. Moore, E.J. Ralston, or John Wick. These are people that did their best to better the sport and try to teach others along the way.

I'm done with this thread. I don't need to argue anymore because you fellers helped prove everything that I was working at to begin with. If any of you would like to continue this you will have to PM me.

Taker Easy and Happy Hunting
Mike

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:07 pm

Hey Michael, ever notice how people, over time, begin to put a different "spin" on what they originally said?? And others criticize, just out of the air, things that were not even said? Guess that they feel a need to sidetrack the conversation someway.

briarpatch

Dan Edwards · Post by **Dan Edwards** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:51 pm

onalimb, I agree with you. I dont give passes cause of who they are out of. Matter fact, they better fill the shoes of who they are out of or they are dead and they better act like who they were out of at a very young age. Plotts still suck though so you suck. HAHAHA! Sorry but you suck plott lover. LOL! :lol:

Dan Edwards · Post by **Dan Edwards** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:44 pm

Where in the hell is the brindle brigade at? :lol:

Figgered I would get a good ole fashion cyber ass chewin for that one.

Jake Bell · Post by **Jake Bell** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:16 pm

Im with Preston, Dan and Reed, if they arent doing anything by six months there gone. And Dan, atleast our plotts dont whine and lick there feet after a day of huntin like your sissy runnin dogs, All they want to do is go catch another critter :lol:

LOL jokes jokes

bigdog061 · Post by **bigdog061** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:22 pm

The problem with allot of folks is they have never seen pups do the things we talk about at 4-6 months! They listen to much to others than actually get out and expierence things with there own 2 eyes! Then they get mad at us folks that litterally wear the leather off of a pair of boots!

You are referring to John Wick, Micheal. In his book he says to wait till about 8 months for "maturity" purposes! No where does say that a 6 month old pup can't get it done, he just says wait to develope there maturity.

Hears the deal folks...........Richard Mcduffie had a stud dog named stubby I believe back in the early 70's he advertised in Full Cry. He bragged that this stud dog had offspring running and treeing at 6 months old. Now if ya go back to the 90's and 2000's advertising, he says to give the till 18-24 months. What happened!!!!! I'll tell you what happened! Money got to rolling in and people get lazy and started breeding no account females and told all these young folks to keep these culls till 18-24 months and then bring the cull back so they can give you another cull to raise for them till 18-24 months and sell the "young dogs" as started dogs and your stuck without a dog that can't tree an animal no matter how long you keep it!!!!!

I know that there are late starting dogs, I know it to be a fact!!!! However, I know of dogs that where catching coons "CONSISTANTLY" by themselves by 12 months old! I am sorry if you never had this expierence, but don't be a hater of those that have, just stick around and quit beleiving everything you here!

Paul