What makes a great dry ground hound?

[Nolte]

Catman,

I'm with you on this one. Most of the better dogs I've had (which is damn few), you get them fired up and get them in the right situations and they take over from there. Keep them off the stuff you don't want and go from there. We had a little female that was showing a lot of promise at a young age, so she got to go out with one of our good cold trailers nearly all the time. Tons more cold trailing experience than most hounds get and she was always there in the mix. But on her own, she just couldn't do it at the level of a good cold trailer.

One other thing I'd like to add is that it seems most dogs have a preference for what they really like to run. Sure they will run other critters, but that one critter really turns their crank. They'll leave a good track of one thing you're trying to run, and work on a tougher track of the track the REALLY want to run. They usually do a damn good job on the ones they want to run.

[Ike]

I don't want to turn this post into breeder'/hunter's argument but the man behind or the man hunting that dog always makes the difference in the outcome, and I'll offer up my reasons for debate.....

That blue Ryan dog had several littermates, but the two brothers were called Jed and Ryan. The guy that bred those hounds always left his pups loose until they old enough to get into trouble or ended up dead or shot, then would catch them up and put them to hunting big game. Jed lived that life until he was a year or so old and my Ryan didn't. That Jed dog learned to cold trail about anything and was deadly on track long before his second year, but the problem was he'd learned to run anything that a loose dog could trail.

That Jed dog was bought by a guy in Heber and went on to catch alot of lions in his time, a for sure trail and tree dog, no doubt. My Ryan dog, however, learned what a shock collar was and learned to hunt lions, bears and bobcats and got his butt kicked for anything else.....

After they were around four years old, I ran down several bears for their owners and that Jed dog came along. On one of those hunts, he bayed up a bull elk and left behind it for the rest of the day then trailed out the following day. Now I figure that six point bull had one of the longest days with ol' Jed that he ever had in his life. Ryan learned to rig true on bear and there was a time when if he blew air on the rig platform it was time to tree a bear. That Jed dog is dead now but I'll bet to the day he died he would run down as tough a lion as any hound, but if free cast into fresh elk that elk was in for a long day.........

And that's why I give the man that trains that hound and hunts him about all the credit, cause what difference does it make if that hounds is a go get'em caught cold trailing fool if he wasn't made to hunt the right stuff?

Another example I have is on that old red Ike dog of mine. There were two really dark male hounds in that litter and my eyes fell to the other pups. The breeder told me that dog was gonna be kept for a show dog and so Ike came to Utah with me. Things changed that that dog ended up in a guys kennel that hunted coyotes and not coons. He told me that dog was coming two at the time and had not been handled or hunted, and in fact was about to the shooter stage. Somehow the dog ended up in another guys hands (I believe he use to log in as Whirlwind over on coonhound board) and one of the local houndsmen around here sent whirlwind some money to buy that dog. Anyway, that dog had probably already been shot and the local never got his money or hound.

My point is a breeder can breed up the best cold nosed dogs that ever lived, with all the heart in the world, great feet and the whole shooting match but if that dog doesn't land in a real hunter's back yard it ain't worth the powder to blow it to hell...........

ike

[Nolte]

Ike,

You're examples sort of proves just the opposite of your intent. Now hear me out on this before you call me an idiot. I sort of agree with you on a point

The only thing we can do to train dogs is A put them on desired game, B keep them off undesireable game, and C teach them a bit of manners/handling. We can't make them have a better noses, teach them to locate, have enough guts to stick a tough bear, or have the heart to pound day after day, etc. They've either got it or they don't.

But like you said, if they aren't molded right they aren't ever going to live up to their potential. But no matter how good a guy is at training dogs, he can't make a cracker jack out of one that doesn't have the raw skills to begin with.

It sounds like Jed and Ryan the right stuff to begin with and in fact, I'd go to say that Jed was given a better shot at learning the ropes at a young age. The problem was that he didn't have somebody who knew how to reel him in after he learned to do the wrong thing. I've seen LOTS of damn good dogs that were trash maniacs at a young age, but once they were corralled in they were dynamite.

[Mr.pacojack]

You know we all hear about training...training...training, and honestly from my experience...a hound that has the right breeding needs very little training because its all natural ability. They need exposure, and need taught handling, but there's hounds out there that will cold trail in snow or dirt at very young ages....all they need is taken to the woods and hunted. Yes they need corrected occasionally on what to trail and what not to trail, but a good bred hound really doesn't require anything but exposure and the more he/she is exposed and handled...(if they have the brains) the better and better they become. Ya know I don't know how a guy is going to teach a dog to cold trail in the dirt...you can send them with older dogs and let the older dogs help teach them or you can walk along and encourage them and keep them young dogs interested, but if they don't have that natural desire to catch certain game...they will not make the kind of dogs you all are talking about imo. I know you hear guys say they took a coonhound and turned him or her into a dryground lion hound but I believe the ability just happened to be there and the individual exposed them to that style of hunting and they picked up on it. I know several won't agree with me on these statements, but I truley believe if you get the right hound....there's very little training involved, just exposure. I also believe that there's a world of difference in the noses on hounds, but I won't go into that because its what I personally believe and have no real scientific evidence to back up what I think

Catman, sorry I should have used Exposer instead of training, I do agree with you, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.But let me ask you this do you think the same dog with the same traits is going to turn out just the same with a hunter that hunts him every weekend for his whole life or a hunter that hunts him everyday? Or put with a huter that is running hot coon tracks or dry ground lions?Most of the most famous Biggame hunters that have made a name for themselfs and there dogs are hunting fools and can make a junk dog with a lot of exposer and turn it into a ok dog.Then what can they do wtih a good or a great dog verse a guy hunting him 6 to 8 times a month?
I still think we are all agreeing pretty much,still everyone is pretty much saying...drive, heart, desire....same thing, right?
I will have to disagree with you on the nose, I have seen so many studies that have been done on a dogs nose and they all say a nose is a nose it is the dog using it that makes the difference. Just like people we all have a nose and what we can all smell is pretty much the same it may vary a little but not that much.They say it is the same with a dog. We as biggame hunters have this magical idea there is this wonder nosed dgo and if that was the case someone by now would have bred this out into a dog and would be a very very rich man by now
Our job as trainers or handlers is expose them to as much as we can let what they were bred for take over and if it doesn't cull, cull ,cull. No matter how much we breed for these traits we are going to still have to cull.

[Catman]

LOL....Well I figured I would get a rise out of some. Ike just pretty much said what I did in a different way. Ya see Ike HANDLED his dog and EXPOSED him to desired game which made Ryan a better dog than Jed. Ryan didn't have to be taught to cold-trail...it was in him from the start. We can take credit for handling our dogs and exposing them to desired game...also breaking them off undesired game, but a true dry ground hound has it in him already....we can't make him/her do it...we just have to encourage them along the way. I hope that nobody thinks that I'm saying you can take any dog and put him with any handler and he/she will turn out the same because I'm not. The part we as handlers have to do is hunt the guts out of them day in and day out to get them to be at their very best. (is that better Paco-Jack?)
But on the same note....there are dogs out there that are better dogs only being hunted on the weekends than some dogs will ever be if hunted every day. And its because of breeding and the natural ablity inside.
I still don't believe all dogs can smell the same and never will....thats why I didn't go into that

Nolte: You are EXACTLY right on when you say that some dogs desire to run different kinds of game....I believe that whole heartedly. Some dogs are better lion dogs.....some better bear dogs......and a few really excell at bobbers.
I'll tell you what I myself think. Lets take Mike Leonard (hope I don't offend you Mike)....the man breeds, raises, and hunts cat dogs both bob, and lion. I guarantee his dogs are pretty natural cat dogs with a huge desire to cold-trail and push a bad track and probably relatively easy to break off of unwanted game for the most part. Its no accident as he's been hunting these dogs on cats for years, and breeding for certain traits and desires to come into his pups....will these dogs catch bears? Hell yea, but I believe most of the pups will desire cats????????? My Opinion Only
On the other hand...you take a guy who hunts bears only that has bred and hunted his dogs on bear alone, and I believe his dogs will have more of a natural desire to run bears. This is not proven only my opinion. I do also believe that there are bear dogs that make dang good cat dogs this is not what I'm saying.

We as people are no different....if you want basketball players you want tall, athletic, kids......Football.....you want big stout tough kids...all have to have the desire for the sport or they won't excell. Your not going to take a guy like me....train me for years and ever make a Micheal Jordan Just won't flippin happen

I'm going to add this: Not all Coaches can get the same results out of an athlete. Certain coaches can reach certain athletes while others may not. BUT you can give alot of credit to a coach who can take a losing team....not change any athletes and make them into a winning team. BUT the coach cannot take the credit for their athletic ability....just the credit for being able to make it shine. Hope you all see what I mean

[Mike Leonard]

Well I said my 2 cents up early but there is a lot of wisdom in this post. Now then I just can't figure why one or more of these wizards of the feline hunt has not spouted off several of the real prime attributes that a true dry ground, dead cold trailing SOB of a puma catchers has to have.
Ok I will let you in on these pearls of wisdom that were passed down to me from one of the last and the best as he said panther men in the southwest.

Are you ready? Ok forgive my grammer girls but to be accurate this must be detailed and to the point.


A REAL COLD TRAILING LION HOUND WILL HAVE A LARGE ARSE HOLE! YEP YOU HEARD IT RIGHT, NOT NO PUCKERED UP TYPE BUT I MEAN ONE THAT WILL LAY A REAL LINCOLN LOG.

A REAL LION HOUND WILL HAVE A SET OF FAMILY JEWELS THAT WILL HANG WAY DOWN AND SWAY IN THE BREEZE. (I GUESS FEMALE HOUNDS NEVER MAKE LION HOUNDS. lol! )


You all think I am crazy, and this is made up. Well to tell you the truth it is straight from a well published dry ground hunter. No not me, I don't have that kind of wisdom, so you all sort that out for yourself, I have things to do. I have a corral full of weanling quarter horses out here and I got to check them over for cowlicks on the left side of their necks. Boy if I got a couple with them we might be in the Cutting Horse Futurity Winner's Circle next year.

Wait! Stop that guy pulling out of the yard! I could have swore that high tan dog in the back of his truck had a Slash Ranch split lip on him!

LOL!

[Ike]

Ike,

You're examples sort of proves just the opposite of your intent. Now hear me out on this before you call me an idiot. I sort of agree with you on a point

Sorry Nolte, but my examples have shown just exactly what I intended them to and that's the man behind the hound makes all the difference in what kind of hound a dog develops into. It kinda sounds like you support the coyote type training, and that's turn'em loose until they can hunt and then catch'em up and put'em down the right track. Sorry but I don't want those kind of dogs, cause if I'm gona buy gas and spend time on a hound that damn hound better not be trashing on anything that crosses.........

And for the the record, I did get that Jed dog and a black and tan Duncan dog to a bayup that year along with three of my hounds. We headed into the bayup and that bear broke arunnin, and I got in behind them. within a half mile that black n tan quit the bear and I picked her up on her backtrail. Another mile or so here came Jed limping along with four canine holes from that bear in his azz. Meanwhile, Ryan, Rowen and LionHeart ran that bear to hell and back and we got them off that bear just before dark........

So my point is that early start of running trash did not make Jed a bear dog while Ryan became one of the best I ever saw, and he developed all that ability hunting with me. But Mike is probably correct, cause I got to looking and noticed he has balls that hang nearly to his knees and the mocho was probably just bred into him............

ike

[Larry Roberts]

Hay Mike Leonard.I have B&T that has a cowlike on both shoulders and on the back of the neck and has an arss as big as thay make,shes just missin the sack,should i head for the desert or stay up in snow? LOL!

[Nolte]

Ike,

Did any of your dogs have any holes in them on that run. Just curious.

We ain't got any Lions to run here in the winter and running bobs are only in certain ares. Not to mention, you can't run a whole bear pack on just bobs. Yotes are the usually the critter of choice for most guys in WI. And to be completely honest, running bear and running coyotes is more similar than running bobs. Dogs that can flat smoke yotes will generally be damn good bear dogs, if they've got enough grit to stick. We don't have enough yotes around here for it to be a problem though, and the dogs generally don't run them without snow.

I'm not sure what you mean by "coyote type training". It's really no different than anything else. You look around, find a track and put the dogs on it. We usually don't free cast or just send them in sections.

I don't get all riled up if a dog runs a critter I've intentionally put him on at other times in the wrong season. It happens but not all that often. If I treed a cat in bear season, I'd probably throw a party. Now if they run a different type of critter that I haven't intentionally put them on that is an entirely different deal. If they are young they get a little correction, if they are old enoug to know better we have a little "Come to Jesus" type talk about it until we don't have to have those type of talks. I've got one right now that is going to have a LOT of those talks.

[Mike Leonard]

Larry ,

I think the 2 cowlicks cancel out the lack of swinging sack so head to the desert with confidence my man! LOL!

I am not kidding about this stuff I actually had a man tell me this was certain and true.But then again I have heard professed experts say what has happened recently in our goverment and banking system is the purge we all need and everything is going to be sunshine and lollipops better than ever.

LOL!

[Ike]

I'm not sure what you mean by "coyote type training". It's really no different than anything else. You look around, find a track and put the dogs on it. We usually don't free cast or just send them in sections.

It sounds like Jed and Ryan the right stuff to begin with and in fact, I'd go to say that Jed was given a better shot at learning the ropes at a young age. The problem was that he didn't have somebody who knew how to reel him in after he learned to do the wrong thing. I've seen LOTS of damn good dogs that were trash maniacs at a young age, but once they were corralled in they were dynamite.

Sorry Nolte but when I was speaking about coyote training I was referring to turning a pup loose to learn to hunt like a coyote, you know, run ground squirrels, rabbits, fox, coyotes, coon, house cats, skunks, chickens, deer and just about anything that wonders up and down the canal..................

ike

[Buddyw]

Good read..
I don't know about desert Dry Ground, and sure don't know about Greatness in terms of Dogs or hunting..

But Here's My opinion anyways... You need a solid Broke dog. Lot's of tracks to pass up to find that cat, Deer, elk, Bear, etc to consistantly catch cats without finding a Track yourself.

Which pretty much takes me and my dogs out of the equation...

[tracypayne]

mr leonard, i like that they should be alot of good houndsman on here because there sure is alot of log home builders that fit that description on here good luck tak a kid hunting. tracy payne