Comparing hounds

[larry]

Over the years I learned if they handle good you spend less gas money trying to find the dogs.

How much does that compare to the savings in gas of putting down on the first track vs driving until a guy gets a rig? Sorry, had to stir the pot.

Why not do both??? maybe you can't cause you make to many excuses for your dogs??

[blackpaws]

I'm still waiting for you to come out nolte and ride along with Mecham, Labrum and I and help us show those dumb red dogs of mine all the tracks they missed........

i don't think he said that your red dogs were dumb

Bring them here and i will bet you a nice cold silver bullet(coors light) they won't rig every track. maybe but highly doubtful. i really do think it is a regional thing and different hunting styles. if i wanted to just rig tracks and dump on rigs i could do that about every mile. but the thing with this area is that come kill season when the bears move early and hit the baits at 7:00 at night and you don't put down on them until 7:00 in the morning, that makes a tough track with a heavy dew or frost on top. if you can tell me that your dogs will run that track and prove it everybody in the state of wisconsin will have their checkbooks open with the pen in hand. you guys have thermals to work with while rigging. we have baits. there is perks in both regions.

it is obvious that you can catch game Ike by the looks of your pictures and videos so i am not questioning any of that. if we took pictures of all the bears we catch here in wisconsin we would run out of film or space on the digital camera. we have it good here and i don't think it's all that big of a secret to anyone. our road systems help us out big time where your roads are spaced out a lot more. but you still can't say that someone is not a real hunter or houndsmen if they leash their dogs.(Larry)

[Ike]

but the thing with this area is that come kill season when the bears move early and hit the baits at 7:00 at night and you don't put down on them until 7:00 in the morning, that makes a tough track with a heavy dew or frost on top. if you can tell me that your dogs will run that track and prove it everybody in the state of wisconsin will have their checkbooks open with the pen in hand. you guys have thermals to work with while rigging. we have baits. there is perks in both regions.

(Larry)

I don't know how we got off the subject of Is a trail dog less than, equal to or more than a honest rig dog that will do the same things? to what my dogs will or won't do off your baits, but the subject in my post is still as I started it........

One of the guys up the page pretty much hit the nail on the head when he said if they both are equal and do the same things and one of those dogs will handle and rig on top of that the rig dog was more........

ike

[blackpaws]

i will give you one thing Ike, you do have some good pictures. the best one is of a plott of course

But, you are like talking to a wall

[Ike]

Yup, I'm probably more stubborn than a good hound!

ike

[Hounder-]

[

One of the guys up the page pretty much hit the nail on the head when he said if they both are equal and do the same things and one of those dogs will handle and rig on top of that the rig dog was more........

ike

I think I finally just understood your question, I ain't going to college for nothing !

Out here in Wisconsin rigging seems different. To me most rigs are hot rigs (bear recently crossed) and to me that is not as fun.

I like the cold tracking from the baits so thats why I like trail dogs more.

But if I could get a good rig dog that rigged cold tracks I'd take it.

Anything to hear a good old cold trail....and when you hear that dog explode to hot barkin' when he hits the hot track, nothing like it!

Stubborn like a good hound Ike? I thought good hounds minded and weren't stubborn haha, just kidding.....


Good topic all
-Hounder

[Ike]

A stubborn hound is a good hound if he'll go run down a lion or bear and catch it; but a great hound is a hound that will do the same and handle and listen while he's doing it!

Years ago I bayed a state record bear on the ground all day, was to the bear at noon, 2:00 PM, 4:00 PM, and finally the tree after dark. I would get twenty-five yards from the bear and hounds and the bear would move off, taking those hounds with him. I was not gonna kill that boar that day because of promises I made to others, so I tried to call my hounds off that bear numerous time to no avail. My lack of ability to do that cost me six or eight hours of my time.

Last spring when Labrum shot this clip I had already called those six hounds down to me, and he stated that he wanted to film that scene. So I sent those six hounds back up to the tree and let them tree bark for five or ten minutes and then called them off again. This little video clip http://www.ingramwildlife.com/callinghounds.wmv was the second time I called them off and they came running. It really doesn't matter to me whether any of you appreciate a pack of hounds that will listen and handle, but these hounds are what I call pleasure hounds, cause they are a pleasure to handle and hunt!

[Big Horn Posse]

I still do not know why the poll is about rig dogs vs trail hounds, but the posts you keep posting are about how well your hounds handle?

First off I have to agree with most the lads here on this. A rig dog maybe more valuable to someone that drives around rigging game, but would be worthless to someone like me that prefers to free cast on foot.

Secondly, I think it is up to the houndsman how they hunt and handle their hounds. What works for you may not work for everyone else. I remember when I got Red he was the most ill handling hound. He would pull me all over the place and as you know he was a big powerful hound being as you supposidly helped train him. I had to school him on handling and teach him to walk behind me as I do all my hounds when I am not free casting. Being a girl that is not very big there would be no way I could have hunted 6 dogs on foot if they didn't handle. I do carry leashes with me as I learned that if I didn't and I shot something out of the tree Red would run off cause he was gun shy so I had to tie him back. My other dogs would come sit by my side and wait till I shot the game out much like bird dogs do so I didn't have to tie them back. Leashes also came in handy for me when I had to use them to get down some ledges to get a couple hounds that were ledged up on a bobcat.
So to each their own on whether to have leashes handy and how you hunt and how your dogs handle. Personally I could care less if I could call my dogs off a tree from a good distance away. My dogs knew when I did put the leashes on them and told them to get back behind me it was time to leave. Does that mean mine handle worse than yours? No, it means that is just how I do things.

There is more than one way to train and hunt hounds. If your way works for you then great, but it doesn't mean your hounds are worth more than mine or anyone elses. Once you realize this maybe you'll become more humble and more likeable.

[Ike]

Secondly, I think it is up to the houndsman how they hunt and handle their hounds. What works for you may not work for everyone else. I remember when I got Red he was the most ill handling hound. He would pull me all over the place and as you know he was a big powerful hound being as you supposidly helped train him. I had to school him on handling and teach him to walk behind me as I do all my hounds when I am not free casting. Being a girl that is not very big there would be no way I could have hunted 6 dogs on foot if they didn't handle.

I do agree that these post evolve a little after everybody applies their input, and I have no control over that tessa. I also agree it's up to the handler how he hunts and trains his hounds if they impose their ill mannered dog on others. I had no hand in the handling of that Red dog tessa, as I only allowed a newcomer to our sport the opportunity to run his pups with mine a couple years from time to time. That dog was never tied up in my backyard, nor did I handle it or teach it manners, so you and the guy you bought it from will have to take credit for the handling part.......

That Red dog did learn to go catch a lion with my hounds as you know, cause he took you to your first big tom tree if I remember.........

Redirect post:
I don't know how we got off the subject of Is a trail dog less than, equal to or more than a honest rig dog that will do the same things? to what my dogs will or won't do off your baits, but the subject in my post is still as I started it........

keep'em treed,
ike

[Nolte]

I'm still waiting for you to come out nolte and ride along with Mecham, Labrum and I and help us show those dumb red dogs of mine all the tracks they missed........

I'd need a straight IV full of Daniels to make it through that day, althought I wouldn't mind enjoying a beer with Mecham. But yeah, I'm on the way. Just go wait by the mailbox until you see me. Rigging is nearly useless here in kill season if you are targeting a big bear. You're not trying to get A bear jumped, your trying to get THE bear jumped. And if you're trying to tell me your dogs would consistantly rig these overnight tracks where humidity hits them and they are frosted up in the fall, well just save 30 minutes you'd take to type up a response and do something more productive. Cause I'm full up on snake oil and not buying any of it.

Why not do both??? maybe you can't cause you make to many excuses for your dogs??

Most of the time the only thing I've got is excuses for my dogs, but we still do OK. I've only wrote about a dozen times that I'll take a track any way I can get it. I'm not proud. It don't matter to me or the dogs how we get a bear run going. But the chances of getting a good bear rolling in kill season is pretty slim by rigging, unless you know the specific small spots they are feeding and are willing to sort through a bunch of runts.

So to me, the entire premise of this thread is bogus to begin with. You'll never convince me that a dog can/will rig EVERY track that it could start otherwise. I haven't seen every dog alive, but enough to convince myself that it's the case. And I trust the years I spend on the backroads a lot more than the time on the keyboard. To each their own.

[Big Horn Posse]

Ike so is that a trait you teach your hounds? To only tree big toms and bears? It doesn't matter to me if Red treed a big cat or a little cat. Point being he was a rude handling dog when I got him and if you are so particular about what kind of dogs you hunt then why didn't you teach him or his previous owner how to handle? You contradict yourself.

[Ike]

I use to hunt with alot of people tessa, but life is so much more simple if a guy stays to himself and only hunts his dogs. Some of my buddies and I had lots of fun back in the day, but in the end I got into this sport for the hounds, and that's what it's about for me, me and those hounds, not a social life......

People do not take well to telling them how to treat their dogs tessa, and you are a testimony to that with your attacks. I put a little video up of what I like in a pack of lion and bear hounds these days, and it's OK with me what any of the rest of you like...I was not imposing my ideas on any of you, only asking what people liked and then defending myself on why I like what I like. If you don't like good strike and rig dogs that handles then that's OK with me, really!

And if you want to see a bear in the tree ol' Hal headed to the Book Cliffs last weekend to hunt dogs until the end of the spring pursuit season. He'll probably be glad to show you a bear plus anything you want to know about handling hounds, finding lion or bear sign as he's been at it a long time--he's educated and helped lots of young people out over the years. I don't know whether he'll drink a beer with you or not cause we have never been that close, but give ol' Labrum a call and he'll hook you up with where that bunch is camped...........

[Big Horn Posse]

Ike that actually is the most real post you have made in awhile. I appreciate your candidness.

Now as far as Hal goes I have respect for him and I know he has respect for me as he told me so himself, same with Shawn. I do think of them as great friends and Shawn knows how much I think of him. I do not need to put their names or anyone elses in my posts to prove anything. When I meet people or talk to them on the phone about hounds and hunting, I simply talk to them, not at them. I have met and talked to a lot of greats and I always listen to what they have to say and learn from it. Same goes for when someone asks my advice or opinion. I try teaching what I have learned from both my experiences and what the old timers have taught me. Houndsmen should not be anti-social, we should share our experiences and educate those that want to learn. I do not have my hounds anymore cause of my injury, but I will always be willing to help someone else out if they need it. Education is the key to preserving our future in hound hunting.

I know how you feel about hunting with other people and other hounds. Personally I think that is sad. The best times I have had hunting on the mountain has been when someone is with me. Sure sometimes dogs mess up and sometimes you fall on your duff going down a hill but we are all hound people and it happens to everyone I have laughed at my friends and they me. That is what life is all about.

Then again as blackpaws said I may be talking to a wall.

[Ike]

I know what you mean tessa, I had more fun watching Hal go find the tracks those two red dogs were riggin on than I've had in a long time. Hal is one of the few houndsmen I have ever had in my truck that left the jealousy at home, and truly watched and enjoyed what those hounds were doing. I figured he had only wanted to go watch my hounds work so he could judge them, but in the field he seemed just as interested in those dogs as if they were his own--a truly rare trait in the hound world!

I have lots of people jump in the truck with me tessa, only most of them don't have any hounds. My box is always full of dogs, cause like I said, that's what it's all about to me the connection between me and those hounds. I do often have a ride along as the seat next to me was empty alot, so I started inviting lots of friends along to show them our great sport. There is something really neat about watching new people witness their firrst strike, trail or tree.........

ike

[Ike]

I'd need a straight IV full of Daniels to make it through that day, althought I wouldn't mind enjoying a beer with Mecham. But yeah, I'm on the way. Just go wait by the mailbox until you see me. Rigging is nearly useless here in kill season if you are targeting a big bear. You're not trying to get A bear jumped, your trying to get THE bear jumped. And if you're trying to tell me your dogs would consistantly rig these overnight tracks where humidity hits them and they are frosted up in the fall, well just save 30 minutes you'd take to type up a response and do something more productive. Cause I'm full up on snake oil and not buying any of it.

Yea, I know what you mean about needing a beer to get through a day with you nolte cause it would probably be tough for sure. I pretty well understand having to cut for tracks off the rig for lion and bear if a guy has a client who is looking for a boar or tom lion--been there and done that way too much! I also realize from watching some of the illegal bear baiters that setting a bait ramps up their chances to find a big boar over a sow or young bear a hundred fold. I had an old illegal baiter once ask me if I guaranteed my bear hunters a boar, to which I laughed and explained good boars are tough to find. He told me he always promised his bear hunters a good bear then I saw his name in the paper a few years later for illegal harvest over bait. So it looks like illegal baiting pays off right up until the time they bust you!

If a guy keeps his ear to the ground he sees or hears about plenty of that around here! The only problem here with baiting for tracks is it's not legal and if a guy kills over that bait he's looking at a third degree felony. Even if the DA allows a person to plea down to a Class "A" that hunter is gonna pay big fines and loose their running license from five to eight years. That houndsman will also be placed on probation and warned not to hunt lions or bears or be around anybody that does on the mountain with hounds or more punishment will follow. To stay legal, we have to rig and look for tracks (and attempt to stay away from those illegal baits) which makes running down a large boar special nolte. So don't ask me why people step over the line but there seems to be lots of it! I think most of us out here understand the game!