line breeding

[bad moon]

i have been reading a little about line breeding and am confused on how it works. like what relation do you breed togather and how many generations can you do it? and basically anything else involved in the process? any info would be great

[Dan Edwards]

Just dont let bullshit comments and definitions get you confused. Its just breeding within a "family line". All the BS you will read on the net is just that BS. Nobody knows how the genes are gonna line up but they are quick to tell you that they do. If you use common sense and take a practical approach you may have some success with it. If you are breeding just for the sake of sayin that you have done this that or another thing then in all reality it aint gonna work. You might be able to talk some folks into believing that it worked for you but those that are in the know will no its not true. Its all inbreeding just different levels of it. I just raised a litter of pups out of a bitch that was out of a brother sister cross. I bred her to a male dog whose momma was also in the same litter as the bitches momma and daddy. Is that inbreeding or linebreeding? Who gives a shit really. Its tight enough to cause problems if there are problems I know that and there were some problems but they have been dealt with.

[Smiley]

Dan I just hate it when you do not talk directly to a point.

[liontracker]

Bad moon - BIG can of worms here. Read some more and then you will be able to ask more specific questions.

Dan, Through my research I discovered that mice and dogs have the same number of chromosomes. They are also the hardest of all animals to genetically predict. However, there are many strains of lab mice that breed full bro to full sis, for over 100 generations with no defects, virtual clones. Obviously, ruthless culling took place to get to that point.

My question is this: Do you think the same can be accomplished with dogs?

[Mike Leonard]

I don't truely belive it can in dogs and here is why.

Dogs are animals that evoke emotions within humans. that is why over the eons they have been domesticated and tuned to be companions and helpers but still the flaw is within the human species.


Yes if they could heartlessly be bred for the number of generations you spoke of and culled without emotion and remorse possibly it could happen but it won't be seen any time soon.


We have seen some breeders get a little grasp of the gentic matching and genotypes and also have seen some rather remarkable success for small periods of time. Think of some of the great strains of hounds and usually the accolades and wonderful achievments all happened within one or two generations. What then? Hmmm? human factor. Greed usually more than sentimentality enters and the cash register starts to ring and the wheels are put in motion but soon all truth to the initial mission is thrown out the window and then other emotions like jealousy, narrow minded self importance and plain old deception enter in and the wheels come off the cart, and everybody is standing around going what the heck happened to old flash in the pan's super strain of hounds we all use to read about?


Dang he should have stuck to mice!

[Dan Edwards]

I am sure with unlimited amounts of resource and a lab to go along with it that alot of things could be done. I dont have a lab and I damn sure aint got much for resources so I just use my head as much as I can and take a practical approach to it. I do not mind culling though cause I dont have much emotion like that. I had 11 pups in my last litter and culled ruthlessly at a very young age all the way down to 3 pups. Them 3 might not make it but they will have a chance at it.

[liontracker]

So then, if the negative human factor was removed and a breeder started with a strain that was heavily line bred for 30+ years, it would be possible?

[Dan Edwards]

You can always try bro. I doubt that you will be successful but give it a shot. You dont have to get off your ass everyday and take the young mice out for a stroll. You dont have to spend the first 3 years of the young mice life teachin them to quit running deer. They dont have to learn how to handle a track and rate it and run it properly. They dont have to learn to locate accurately and honestly and stay. They wont drown when they get out on a frozen river. A car damn sure aint gonna run them over. I dont think mice bark and if they do you cant hear them so the neighbors wont get pissed or you yourself wont get pissed and start a massive kennel cleansing. You can keep Parvo out of the lab most likely. Even if your old lady divorces you and takes all your shit, you might still could afford to feed a mouse. I doubt if the mice will take time away from you goin to watch your little ones play ball. No, it cant be done but some folks dispense the Kool-Aid and there is always a bunch of dumb asses that drink it, me being one of them at one time or another in my unbelievably naive lifetime.

[Dan V]

Without line breeding, where did all of the different breeds come from? Not just in hounds but in bird dogs, stock dogs etc.?

Say the word Blood hound, Walker, Black Lab or Border Collie, and we all have an image in our heads of what they look like. How do they all look similar and have similar characteristics within their breed?

How does a German Short Hair Pointer pup point birds at an early age and ignore a lion track that its standing on, and a hound pup wants to trail things and ignores the birds flushing around it.

[Dan Edwards]

For sure all breeds came about from linebreeding and inbreeding and outcrossing and whatever method that the village dogs took on. Have yall read the book "Dog" by the Coppingers I believe. If not you oughta, they will open some eyes for sure. All the nostalgia and romance is tossed out the window though so alot of people wont like it.

[Dan Edwards]

http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understandin ... 711&sr=1-1

It will make you laugh at how ridiculous we can be at times.

[Rusty Hill]

You can always try bro. I doubt that you will be successful but give it a shot. You dont have to get off your ass everyday and take the young mice out for a stroll. You dont have to spend the first 3 years of the young mice life teachin them to quit running deer. They dont have to learn how to handle a track and rate it and run it properly. They dont have to learn to locate accurately and honestly and stay. They wont drown when they get out on a frozen river. A car damn sure aint gonna run them over. I dont think mice bark and if they do you cant hear them so the neighbors wont get pissed or you yourself wont get pissed and start a massive kennel cleansing. You can keep Parvo out of the lab most likely. Even if your old lady divorces you and takes all your shit, you might still could afford to feed a mouse. I doubt if the mice will take time away from you goin to watch your little ones play ball. No, it cant be done but some folks dispense the Kool-Aid and there is always a bunch of dumb asses that drink it, me being one of them at one time or another in my unbelievably naive lifetime.

[liontracker]

I hear ya Dan and Mike. I am not talking about starting from scratch and creating a super strain. Instead, I am talking about a poorboys' way of cloning the bitch I have.

Once a strain has been linebred and culled ruthlessly for 6 generations, and a guy has a bitch that is everything he could have ever hoped for and more, it seems a shame to outcross. If I could breed her to herself it would be perfect. Since that won't happen, the next best thing is breed tighter and cull. If the culling was done right in the first place, then there should be less problems.

[Dan Edwards]

I hear ya Dan and Mike. I am not talking about starting from scratch and creating a super strain. Instead, I am talking about a poorboys' way of cloning the bitch I have.

Once a strain has been linebred and culled ruthlessly for 6 generations, and a guy has a bitch that is everything he could have ever hoped for and more, it seems a shame to outcross. If I could breed her to herself it would be perfect. Since that won't happen, the next best thing is breed tighter and cull. If the culling was done right in the first place, then there should be less problems.

If you have a bitch that you really really like and you know that she is everything you want then yes by all means go for it. Breed her to her brother, her daddy, her uncle, her grandaddy. Breed her to whatever it is that will tighten up your line and cull hard if you have to. Breed her to her daddy and cull all the females when they are born and hunt the 3 or 4 males left or 2 or 3 males left for 3 years and find out just what you got and then breed em back to their momma. I am all for radical inbreeding like this. I am all for outcrossing if thats what it takes. I will back you up 100% on your journey and would love to know truthfully how this one turns out. I'd even like you to try again if you fail and try one more time just for the hell of it if you should happen to fail again. You know why, cause I truely want to know and understand it so we can all work together and really find out how to get better dogs. The promoters are workin against us boys that really care so its pretty much an uphill battle and we are usually fightin an army and we are also always alone.

[pete richardson]

You can always try bro. I doubt that you will be successful but give it a shot. You dont have to get off your ass everyday and take the young mice out for a stroll. You dont have to spend the first 3 years of the young mice life teachin them to quit running deer. They dont have to learn how to handle a track and rate it and run it properly. They dont have to learn to locate accurately and honestly and stay. They wont drown when they get out on a frozen river. A car damn sure aint gonna run them over. I dont think mice bark and if they do you cant hear them so the neighbors wont get pissed or you yourself wont get pissed and start a massive kennel cleansing. You can keep Parvo out of the lab most likely. Even if your old lady divorces you and takes all your shit, you might still could afford to feed a mouse. I doubt if the mice will take time away from you goin to watch your little ones play ball. No, it cant be done but some folks dispense the Kool-Aid and there is always a bunch of dumb asses that drink it, me being one of them at one time or another in my unbelievably naive lifetime.

yup

i had to look it up , but
mice can reproduce at 6 weeks and can have a litter every month---that 100 generations wont take long




dogs can reproduce pretty fast too , proving they are worth breeding takes some time-
20 years ,you will probably be at 3-5 generations -
its kind of big project ,