BIGGAME HOUND

[Mike Leonard]

I agree it is possible to have one that shines on all of them but it doesn't happen very often. He may be the best thing you have or have seen but who knows?

Devin I don't have anything to lose because I don't have anything to bet. This heavy hitter stuff to me is not my line of thinking. I don't hunt as a competitive sport I hunt for enjoyment and for the love of watching dogs work. You are welcome to come hunt with me anytime you like. We will hunt your dogs one day and mine one day because I don't mix packs. I wouldn't be surprized if your dogs made mine look terrible, but i will still like them and still follow them.


You hunt a lot with Van and he is without a doubt a true heavy hitter in every sense of the word. I have the upmost respect for him and his ability. You are truely blessed to be able to learn from a master. I don't see Van often but I see Chaser(Billy) all the time and we are good friend and he got his start with me many years ago. He is a top bear hunter as I am sure you are well aware. He gives Van tremendous credit as he should, but he also gives credit to others he has learned from, and that doesn't mean just me to many others.

I get maybe a little more information at times than I need but that goes with the territory. I was sorry to hear that Van lost that top dog the other day on the sheep deal.I guess that goes with the territory.

I guess those pups out of Wade and that Littermate to Echo are really turning the crank at 6-7 months. Billy is wound up big time about the one he calls Arrow.


Tony,

I may come but there will be no bets from me. too many variables and when the sport you love becomes a job or a contest it loses it's charm and relaxation qualities. My golf game sucks so I don't want to comprimise my hound hunting. LOL!

[Huntintony]

Mike, I agree with you on the wagering. When we started this idea, the goal was to get some of the best handlers and the best dogs in the woods at one place.

We are going to be keeping with the original plan. I think it will be a great opportunity for everyone to meet face to face, tell stories and to see some of the best dogs in the west. This hunt will be open to everyone that loves to hunt with hounds. I have thousands of acres of private land that is loaded with cats. Like I said our goal is to have fun and to meet fellow hunters that you may not would have ever had the chance to. I will have more info soon..
Tony

[Buddyw]

Paco..

My comments aren't so much about the dogs ability as it is towards the Training and handling.. The "Finishing" touches. I have no doubts that if you have good dogs, they can learn to be cat dogs, If they aren't already, and can be top dogs as well.. That's not my point at all..

But if you have dogs that will take a bear track, can you cold trail a bobcat over the top of a Bear? How many cats do you catch in the summer time, I would guess you catch a hell of allot more bears than cats This time of year.

If you can go out this weekend and catch a Bobcat with Dogs that Run and Tree bears I would be very impressed, and would give you props, I might even appoligize. for my wrong way of thinking.

The things that impress me about a Cat dog that is above other cat dogs. How well the dog Strikss and works a cold track.. How much pressure they can put on a Jumped track, And lastly how Broke the dog is. A multipurpose dog is not Cat Broke... (again.. In my humble opinion..)

With that said, I do hope to get out someday and hunt different country with different people... i think that would be fun and a learning experience.


Tony: I by no mean want to get into a wagering competition match either.. it's not a competition to me at all.. and I can see how my Comments could be taken out of context.. Like I said, It would have to be Fun and friendly. I have a young one, We are taking this weekend. We'll see how he handles the drive, but I would love to try and show up for something like that..

[Huntintony]

Buddy, we would love to have you and the family. And Devin, I would love to meet you and see your dogs aswell. And I'm sure others would also.

[tedsmith]

all dogs can run a variety of critters but to be called a cat dog you had better run cats nothing else. if thats not the way it is you are not a cat dog. just my opinion i dont have bears or lions wish i did three cs coons cats coyotes somehow they always seem to run the first or the last maybe i just cant train a dog. very good post lets see where it goes.

[Liz ODell]

Out here in CA if you don't run a little of everything you don't get your dogs out much, Usually its not much of a problem except when I am wanting to catch a bear and they keep striking varmints. I have had three dogs that were excellent on all three (cat, bear and lion) and I guess by excellent I mean if you put them on a track they caught it, cold track or hot, summer or winter, pop up or bay up. 2 were/are sons of the first dog. On coons and fox they had/have different strengths and weaknesess, the sire could care less about coons but was a decent fox dog, the second son would flat smoke a fox but sometimes would not even run a coon and the third son has not had much fox experience but is a better cooner than the other two and has passed over bear tracks on a cat track. The sire had a preference for bobcats, in his lifetime I saw him leave a jumped bear race to tree a cat two times, and once to tree a bigger feline, "better get on over here cause ol Mojo just treed that 'deer'!" Ha, good times, of days gone by. However I would imagine that a dog run on only one type of game would always excell over the multi-purpose dog, I would rather catch a bobcat than anything but if thats all I limited myself to doing I'd be sitting at home during the summer (dog control zone) and looking alot but not finding alot during the open season as the cats are just not that thick here and my old toyota quits me when the snow gets about 2 feet deep.

[LCK]

Very good question Devin, I have had this question in the forefront of my mind for a good many years. I hunt my dogs a lot, year round. I put them on bear, coon, bobcat, lion and coyote. I have seen some of them excell more than others on certain game. I have only seen one of them that I can say is truly a one species dog. This little dog will chase or I should say follow, about anything I put her on, but when she gets on a bobcat track the magic happens. As a result, I only hunt her on bobcat and lion, and very seldom lion any more. I am not sure a person can really judge a dog fairly unless or until he/she has really pounded the dogs hard on multiple critters over the course of a few years. Then he/she can start to see the seperation and differences. I can say with confidence that I do have some that excell on bear and yote, while some others excell on cat/lion, but having gone through a good many dogs this past several years, I have only seen one who has that something special for one critter, regardless of time of year or terraine. The rest do "ok" on a variety of game and can hold their own, but none of them are what I would call a specialist except for the one female. I think they are very rare dogs.

[three rivers catahoulas]

My dog's have there preferances, I only run two game animals Bear and Hogs. Bobcat and Lion are if come maybe's, if I put there nose in it they'll run it, but I dont catch to many bobcat, and only a few lion. My Dan dog loves pigs, if were huntin pigs were there are bear, Dan will run over a bear track if he's runnin a pig, my Hobo dogs the same way. Timber will do the oposite, and he would be the only dog I own that may make an OK cat dog. None of them want to run coon, they will honor a tree if I'm huntin with some of my friends dogs that are jamup coon dogs, but to go out looking for one, no they just dont want to. My Molly dog and Paisley are about 50-50 on bear and pigs, but neither one of them is a super strong tree dog, they like it on the ground, My gauge dog is showing that he likes pigs more then anything so far, but we'll see this bear season. So I think the dogs know what they like, but all they want to do, is do a good job for you. I dont know how most people look at there dogs, but mine are 11 of my best friends, and they play the roll of a good friend too, I would do anything for them and they would return the gesture at the drop of a hat. Sorry about just ramblein on, but man I love hounds!!!

[liontracker]

Sorry I ment liontracker, Tim

What's that all about?

In the first place a top Bobcat hound is the rarest of all hounds. Why would you want to run it on bear? They don't just grow on trees...at least not the trees I've been under.

And secondly, what was Van's opinion on it? Why doesn't he run his best cat dogs on bear?

And thirdly, ever hear the old addage "jack of all trades, master of none"...applies pretty well to a hound.

[rh]

I think the cat dogs Van has he doesn't also run on bear are the ones that don't like bear I can't see Van setting a dog on the chain for four or five months at a stretch Devin correct me if I'm wrong. This is a awesome topic You read the books about Ben Lilly, The Lee brothers, they hunted all game and arguably the best houndsmen ever and they used the same hounds for all game I would think the only hounds they didn't use on bear was the ones that were whipped off. I have friends in B.C. that only hunt lion and for them with all the bear they have break to their dogs off of them totally understandable they don't wan't to hunt bear thats one thing, but to say they can't trail a dirt lion and still catch a bear it's all in the handler and how they are started in my opinion.

[Mr.pacojack]

Sorry I ment liontracker, Tim

What's that all about?

In the first place a top Bobcat hound is the rarest of all hounds. Why would you want to run it on bear? They don't just grow on trees...at least not the trees I've been under.

And secondly, what was Van's opinion on it? Why doesn't he run his best cat dogs on bear?

And thirdly, ever hear the old addage "jack of all trades, master of none"...applies pretty well to a hound.

I will answer all 3 of your questions

first. I do not concider a bobcat dog the rarest of all hounds. I concider a top Bobcat ,Bear and lion hound to be the rarest of all hounds. And yes there is such a dog and we should all be breeding for it.

Second. I asked Van the question and He agreed with me. He runs his best bear dogs on lion and bobcat they are one in the same.

Third I have heard of that old addage but I think it was just an excuse for a very lazy person that reads alot of books and hunts more on the computer than in the feild

Like rh said we read of all the greats and they had multi purpose dogs that we all claim we wish we had dogs just like them or blood from their dogs.
These dogs we have are nothing more than professional Ball players and we need to give them the upmost training.Just like the pros do. You don't see them play for 4 months and take 8 months off, they train all year.

Can you honestly tell me that the 4 mouths out of the year you get to hunt your dogs on lion that you can make Top dogs out of them???? And the rest of the year they sit in your kennel and do nothing.Out of the 4 months you hunt do you hunt everyday or do you have to work also? So lets say you hunt the weekends 8 days a month so you get 32 days of hunting in a year. And the other 300 days do you read them those books so they get more trained or let them play on the computer?

Oh yes your first question. My dogs are not from fancy French foo foo poo poo dogs and I do NOT have 5 month old pups that will run a 5 day old bobcat(frozen in the dirt) track like you do. I just have these crossed up coon dogs.
And I get so tired of guys that have never hunted their dogs on more than one type of game and make the claim that, that is the best hound in the world and there can not be any other way.
Well I guess I will buck the system too because I believe in the Ben Lilly's and the Lee's and the Van Johnsons and all the Heavy hitters as Mike put it. I think you can have a Top Bear,Lion,Bobcat Dog and we should be breeding for it.

[Mr.pacojack]

And thirdly, ever hear the old addage "jack of all trades, master of none"...applies pretty well to a hound.

I hope that only applies to your dogs because if it applied to my dogs they would be Dead

[Mr.pacojack]

Great points Nolte and I think this is were alot of confussion comes in and why some have such a hard time understanding this.
Out west for the most part, We may start our pups on coon but do not continue it. We do not run our dogs on coyotes ( a very few may). Our seasons are such we don't have a problem running a bear in our cat seasons.(Very rare)The only problem we may have is running a Bob when lion hunting or running a lion when bob hunting and unless you are guiding a hunter then it generally is not a big deal.
Most the time out west you don't have too much of a problem with coon and bear in the same area and Lions and bobcats are usually (not always) a little lower with the deer heards and bobs are lower with the rabbits, we don't have alot of rabbits in the heavy timber.

[liontracker]

You are piece of work...

I may not have the gov't. as an excuse to hunt my dogs, but they surely get out way more than you think. I spent 3 yrs in a row, hunting over 200 days per yr., 10 - 14 days straight at a time. I also do not have 5 month old pups that pound a 5 day old frozen in the dirt bobcat track. But I do have veteran hounds that can run a week old frozen in the mud lion track. As for Van running his cat dogs on bear, well that is not what he told me. Besides I catch big toms right in Vans back yard every year that him and the "boys" don't even know exist. Those guys hardly ever leave the road. To them it is all about money and how fast can you fill out and send the shooter home.

And here's the kicker...your hounds are indeed from "fancy french hounds"... where do you think they came from in the first place? The real problem today is that all these super ego type guys who call themselves breeders, have jealously bred the nose right out of them. While at the same time they have everyone convinced they are breeding the "Holy Grail" of the hound world.

The hound world is way bigger than your backyard...

[Nolte]

These dogs we have are nothing more than professional Ball players and we need to give them the upmost training.Just like the pros do. You don't see them play for 4 months and take 8 months off, they train all year.

Sure, but you don't see Arod stepping on the ice with Sydney Crosby or Allen Iverson expecting to tackle Adrian Peterson. I get your point but I just had to be a smart ass.

I completely agree with you that the more time dogs are hunted the better they are. No doubt. But for the vast majority hunting every day all year is NOT possible. And at times for those that can it's not possible (weather or other situatons). I also thinkthat hunting every day can make average dogs into something they really aren't just from raw exposure. I personally like more "natural" type dogs that it seems to click right from the get go, but I think we all do. I'm just a regular hunyuck though that follows some long eared dogs around. Some are OK, some aren't and at the end of the day I'm just happy to be able to hunt and be on the right end of a track most times. I've always got my eye out for one of those "naturals" though, cause they can make dude like me look like I actually know what I'm doing.