Bill Green's breeding advisor

[Mr.pacojack]

I'm still confused about the discrepancy in how long he was involved in hounds, but what difference does it make? However, in lieu of actual documentation that Bill Green personally imported French hounds and incorporated them into his breeding, I'll just have to go with your assumption. It makes sense to me. Opinions and circumstatial evidence in this case may be all we have or ever will have. Personally, I can't accept anything as a historical fact without the documentary providence. I'm absolutely not saying it didn't happen and your theory is as good as any I've heard, but honestly, without written proof, all we have is opinion and educated guesswork.

[liontracker]

Once agian, Nice dance. Still no proof

I'm absolutely not saying it didn't happen and your theory is as good as any I've heard, but honestly, without written proof, all we have is opinion and educated guesswork.

So what are you looking for? a 3 x 5 card with his hand written notes? I honestly don't know what else is out there, unless it is a pic in the box of Bill Green pics that Bill Mason gave a guy back east, or maybe one of the 40 reels of home video that Bill Green shot and his grandson just recently got ahold of. Or lets see here, a ship's manifesto with Bills Name on it and a cargo of french hounds, oh what was I thinking...those are probably someone elses dogs. Why hell, I guess we will have to wait on the lab for DNA results.

I'm still confused about the discrepancy in how long he was involved in hounds, but what difference does it make?

Probably alot in terms of how many hounds Bill actually produced and their level of impact. Bow knows why.

However, in lieu of actual documentation that Bill Green personally imported French hounds and incorporated them into his breeding, I'll just have to go with your assumption. It makes sense to me.

Me too

Personally, I can't accept anything as a historical fact without the documentary providence.

That would be nice. Wanna search ships manifesto's? I don't have the time. Besides, the proof is in the puddin' and I am already seeing the fruits of my labors in the pups from the very first cross. So for the next couple of years, while we wait on the DNA thing, me and some other guys will enjoy some extra fine hounds. Pretty lucky...but then again I'll take luck over smart any day...can't beat that.

[Mr.pacojack]

Besides, the proof is in the puddin' and I am already seeing the fruits of my labors in the pups from the very first cross. Pretty lucky...but then again I'll take luck over smart any day...can't beat that.

I wish you luck. And I do mean that. One thing that I would have wanted to see differenty if I were you, would be to see those hounds go to some of the hardest hunting guys I could have found. Unlike some of them that you placed them in that are already talking about the crosses they are going to make with them, without ever hunting them. Really get some honest oppinions on what they are doing rather than, "They look like Bill Green's hounds, they have to be great".

[liontracker]

One thing that I would have wanted to see differenty if I were you,

I've been waiting months for this one...

would be to see those hounds go to some of the hardest hunting guys I could have found.

They got spread around pretty good.
Texas, New Mexico,Arizona,Colorado,Utah,Montana,Alberta,British Columbia. Virtually from one end of North America to the other.
The only guy predicting crosses is Steve and he is on a mission. He also bought a pure bred GGS, not one of the crosses.

Which brings up another thing. How long have some of the Majestic people been trying to recreate the same type?

I wish you luck. And I do mean that.

I appreciate that, I really do, especially after some of the shit that has been said on this Bill Green/French Hound Theory of mine and the quality of my GGS imports. Stay tuned...and never...say never.

[liontracker]

So I guess we can "assume" that Vinny Orlando wasn't Bill Greens Breeding Advisor!

[liontracker]

Bob, here's an old memory.
Enlarge and read the right hand column.

[African]

Besides, the proof is in the puddin' and I am already seeing the fruits of my labors in the pups from the very first cross. Pretty lucky...but then again I'll take luck over smart any day...can't beat that.

I wish you luck. And I do mean that. One thing that I would have wanted to see differenty if I were you, would be to see those hounds go to some of the hardest hunting guys I could have found. Unlike some of them that you placed them in that are already talking about the crosses they are going to make with them, without ever hunting them. Really get some honest oppinions on what they are doing rather than, "They look like Bill Green's hounds, they have to be great".

Since returning home to South Africa in March, my pack has hunted 3 to 4 days of every week across numerous terrain, from the Kalahari desert to the savanna grassland, combretum and mopani woodland to sub-tropical forest, through 3 seasons, including our winter (no rain).
Typically we camp out and do 3 days on a trot, hunting mornings and evenings into the night, resting through the heat of midday.
The hounds performance remains constant and although their condition decreases, injured and sensitive feet have not been an issue at all. After the initial excitement their hunt drive, desire and determination remain constant.
Some individuals are more accurate on the track while others drift in the attempt to push the track.Typically the larger frame dogs work slower and the immense athletic capacity of the lighter dogs drives them to push faster.
I can construct the pack most suitable to the environment by selecting the individuals in the pack.
Chiefly we hunt Caracal and Serval because hunting Leopard is prohibited.
Both animals have an average weight of less than 40 pounds and leave very little scent.

Excluding the hunting, the dogs have a perfect disposition. Very easy to handle and they mind well. They are intelligent and are only vocal during the hunt. My kennels remain peaceful apart from the pups play.
They are very easy to game proof and do not need forceful, violent correction - I only use training collars and vocal commands.

In the past I have hunted with Blueticks, Redticks, Walkers, Black and Tans and most of the crosses in between and cannot be happier that I have left all of that behind.
Granted that here in Africa we do not have the pool of selection a hunter benefits from in the US and that has implications on quality.

The GGS is a stock standard, top quality 4 wheel drive vehicle, very capable of hunting any of the desired game. Like a vehicle, one must tweak the specific traits in order to perfectly suit the terrain and requirements.
Just train it correctly and patiently, then let it loose to do what generations of hunters have selectively bred it for.

[Catman]

African,
Do you have an e-mail address? I would like to talk to you about something offline. My e-mail is dbess@stratanetworks.com

[Brady Davis]

Besides, the proof is in the puddin' and I am already seeing the fruits of my labors in the pups from the very first cross. Pretty lucky...but then again I'll take luck over smart any day...can't beat that.

I wish you luck. And I do mean that. One thing that I would have wanted to see differenty if I were you, would be to see those hounds go to some of the hardest hunting guys I could have found. Unlike some of them that you placed them in that are already talking about the crosses they are going to make with them, without ever hunting them. Really get some honest oppinions on what they are doing rather than, "They look like Bill Green's hounds, they have to be great".

Since returning home to South Africa in March, my pack has hunted 3 to 4 days of every week across numerous terrain, from the Kalahari desert to the savanna grassland, combretum and mopani woodland to sub-tropical forest, through 3 seasons, including our winter (no rain).
Typically we camp out and do 3 days on a trot, hunting mornings and evenings into the night, resting through the heat of midday.
The hounds performance remains constant and although their condition decreases, injured and sensitive feet have not been an issue at all. After the initial excitement their hunt drive, desire and determination remain constant.
Some individuals are more accurate on the track while others drift in the attempt to push the track.Typically the larger frame dogs work slower and the immense athletic capacity of the lighter dogs drives them to push faster.
I can construct the pack most suitable to the environment by selecting the individuals in the pack.
Chiefly we hunt Caracal and Serval because hunting Leopard is prohibited.
Both animals have an average weight of less than 40 pounds and leave very little scent.

Excluding the hunting, the dogs have a perfect disposition. Very easy to handle and they mind well. They are intelligent and are only vocal during the hunt. My kennels remain peaceful apart from the pups play.
They are very easy to game proof and do not need forceful, violent correction - I only use training collars and vocal commands.

In the past I have hunted with Blueticks, Redticks, Walkers, Black and Tans and most of the crosses in between and cannot be happier that I have left all of that behind.
Granted that here in Africa we do not have the pool of selection a hunter benefits from in the US and that has implications on quality.

The GGS is a stock standard, top quality 4 wheel drive vehicle, very capable of hunting any of the desired game. Like a vehicle, one must tweak the specific traits in order to perfectly suit the terrain and requirements.
Just train it correctly and patiently, then let it loose to do what generations of hunters have selectively bred it for.

African, congrats pn your success with the GGS, seems like these white hounds might actually hunt after all eh?!

I know I am sure enjoying the two pups I have, in fact, I'm about to load up and take them out on a ride with m e on my mule here in a few minutes....

[Brady Davis]

One thing that I would have wanted to see differenty if I were you, would be to see those hounds go to some of the hardest hunting guys I could have found. Unlike some of them that you placed them in that are already talking about the crosses they are going to make with them, without ever hunting them. Really get some honest oppinions on what they are doing rather than, "They look like Bill Green's hounds, they have to be great".

I know of two in my backyard that will get the hair hunted off of them...day in and day out And, as promised, yall will get my reports. I beleive with the pups I currently have and some of the blood I am bringing in, I am assembling a pack that will suit me hunting big game in any country this country has to offer...

Cheers

[liontracker]

Obviously the importation of French Grande Bleu de Gascognne bloodlines has greatly and negatively impacted the modern big blues. I can see where that would cause others to be wary of such a cross. On ther other hand, maybe you are on the right track with your GSs. They are a completely different breed than the Grande Bleus, aren't they?

Yes they are...completely different. The Grand Gascon Saintongeois has a better nose, better conformation, better disposition, better heat tolerance, more stamina...to name a few of the more obvious differences.

[liontracker]

Actually it is the most important part. Because no one has ever reproduced a Green Mountain Hound.

Tim,

Why is it necessary to reproduce a Green Mountain hound? Were they in any way superior to the old bloodlines of Harry Smith, Elbert Vaughn, of Oliver Grant? If so, what made them superior? Is it possible that Bill Green is the most underrated and underappreciated foundation breeder of the big blue hound of today? I certainly believe it is possible, but if so, then why?

Somewhere I've become lost in this thread. Have we proven in any size shape or form that Bill Green (or any other prominent houndsman of that time) actually imported French hounds and incorporated them into their breeding program? What evidence do we have outside of a few pictures? I'll be the first to admit that I can see what appears to similar characteristics in the pics that Steve posted between Bill's hounds and the pure French hounds in the other pics, but I've seen those same characteristics in modern hounds. The french influence is undoubtedly there, but how many generations removed?



.

[liontracker]

[quote=", I can't accept anything as a historical fact without the documentary providence.[/quote]


Here's some:

H.O.Smith article by Del.jpg

This was wrote by Del, but center column last couple of paragraphs. "She became the renown Smith's Blue Ann and was also of french gascon decent". I would love to see a pic of her. I bet she is a black and white not a blue and white. I'll see if I can find the one Harry wrote.

Does not specify white or blue gascon. I vote white, based in Bills' pics and video.

But even in Del's mind the Green Hounds were the reason the Sugar Creeks were what they were.

So if a guy likes that kind of hound, where does he get one today?

[lmorgan]

Tim,

Thanks for posting the article that Del wrote all those years ago on Harry Smith. It's always been one of my favorite articles. I remember looking at that picture of Top Notch Drum when I was a kid and thinking that he was my ideal type hound. He doesn't look particularly "French" to me, though. It seems that you've been a little defensive with me and you don't need to be. I stand by my belief that the importation of the two Grand Bleus in the '70s caused way more harm to our beloved big blues than good, but like you said, they were a completely different breed than the GGSes that you have brought in. I am also convinced that you have put your GGS/Lilly crosses (I don't really know who has the purebred ones except Steve and Brady... I'm sure they will do their part as well), into the hands of guys I consider my friends and I'm confident they will absolutely hunt their hounds. If any pups ever had the opportunity to prove themselves, then these should. I applaud your devotion to Bill Green and your opinion of his hounds. I also applaud what you're trying to do. I have no axe to grind in any form or fashion.
If Bill Green did indeed import GGS hounds and cross them with his own, and it worked for him, then we are all better off for it. No argument there. I'm not after any kind of ships manifest or packing list or even an affidavit from Bill's next of kin. I buy your argument that circumstantial evidence suggests that he did indeed make some imports.

But lets look at this from a skeptics point of view for a second. If the importation of purebred GBdG culls (obviously) created such a stir as to cause countless matings and hundreds of pups and consequently had such a negative affect on the hounds we have today, then how come Bill Green's importation of the same hounds go relatively unnoticed and seems to have only been crossed into his own line of hounds? Also, if we are to believe, through Del's article, that both Harry O. Smith and Bill Green used Grand Bleu de Gascognne crosses, why didn't they inherit the same problems from the Bleus that we did in the '70s? Was it strictly because Spartan and Marengo were culls and not representative of the breed?

If I'm reading this right, you believe that Bill Green probably imported GGSes and NOT GBdGs, right? Due mostly to the color schemes you've seen in his hounds? Makes PERFECT sense to me. But if that is the case, then why does Del clearly say that both the Smith and Green hounds were of Bleu Gascognne descent? Was he just mistaken? Or could Del have merely meant what I've read countless other Bluetick enthusiasts say in that ALL Blueticked hounds in America can trace their heritage back to the Grand Bleus of old? Many contemporary big blue enthusiasts believe that their hounds carry more traits of the old world Bleus than the Americanized competition type Blueticks of today. I don't necessarily agree with that assumption, but I've heard it many times. Again, just an opinion.

Do you see my point, Tim? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with you, your opinion, or what you're trying to do with your hounds. My own stake in this is purely historical. Del's article is NOT proof of any size, shape or form. It is merely secondary source documentation and can not be conidered anything but circumstantial and opinionated. So far, no primary source and historically accurate providence has been produced. As you have already said, until technology comes forth and we've got the DNA to prove it, then we're just guessing. If we have a shipping order, manifest, or whatever, then yes, we have primary source documentation that would prove your theory conclusively. If we have a written document from Harry Smith or Bill Green that they did these things, then again, we have proof. Until then, we just have theory.

Is it a good theory? Absolutely. I believe that you are most likely right on the money and are standing on solid historical ground. But it is still just my opinion, just as it is yours.

[Bow]

dam that bill he was always one to get somthing stured up.