What are your thought on this?

[Mike Leonard]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/science/17obprey.html


Here is an atricle out of the New York Times stating that cougars are more likely to feed on weak and sick deer than healthy ones. They think that this might even help eliminate the spread of chronic waste in some instances.


My personal expereince differs a bit from the biologists in Colorado. On several different occasional in areas where I have lived and hunted we have had outbreaks of (Blue Tongue)Hemmoragic Fever in deer. Deer that are advanced in this have swollen tongues and cannot drink and wander about many times not showing any natural fright of humans or predators.We have seen where lions have taken down killed eaten on and covered up to return healthy deer while the infected deer may be wandering right around the kill site unharmed.


Dale Lee made a similar observation many years ago about trailing a lion that had walked right up to a deer that was sick and laying down but had it's head up. Said the lion just walked off and never touched this deer but went on and killed a healthy one.

Not sure if these are just isolated cases or not.

What have you found?

[catdogs]

I cannot make comment on lions passsing up the sick and the week, but the deer I have seen killed - probably 20 or so, appeared to be in good physical condition.

[nvlion_hunter]

Good post! I don't find very many kills but the ones I have found all seemed to be healthy deer. They say coyotes only prey on the sick and week also. If true the why did I find a four year old buck they killed just the other day. Two out of the four are not living anymore!

[Conejos]

Ya mike Ive noticed almost the oposite of these biologist. When I first started lion hunting with some friends a few years back we were after this huge tom for a couple of years. Most of his kills were healthy bull elk. Don't know if that was coincidence or what but we never found his tracks on a deer kill. I think they are definately opportunistic hunters but I would say most mature lions are efficiant enough hunters to kill what they want. And if you could kill whatever you wanted to why would you choose a sick one? JMO

[BuckNAze]

Well if lions or animals in general have any logical thinking maybe they dont want to kill something that looks sick, who knows. All I know is Ive noticed mostly bigger bucks, and by bigger I mean the type you dream about killed. I have seen deer kills, also dont overlook bobcats killing smaller yearling fawns and does. Found a bocat kill last year and my buddy found one drug off the road by a bobcat.

[U.R.E.]

I believe it would be dependent on the particulars of the cougar’s character and the prey base. I had the opportunity to witness cougar behavior during the cougar study here in Oregon. Some cougars preyed almost exclusively on deer and some on elk while others went from water way to water way (I believe hunting beaver and raccoon). I do believe cougar are opportunistic hunters to a degree. If they were 100% opportunistic humans would be in serious trouble.

I would imagine a deer that does not respond to the presents of a cougar in a “normal” way would not trigger the pursuit instinct of the cat. It may even be contrary; the cat may perceive the response as defensive like a maternal elk.

Just thinking out loud…….

Don

[.25-06]

I would imagine a deer that does not respond to the presents of a cougar in a “normal” way would not trigger the pursuit instinct of the cat. It may even be contrary; the cat may perceive the response as defensive like a maternal elk.

+1

[twist]

In all the years I have hunted lions and came across thier kills they seemed to have picked healthy looking one to me. Its a good speech for the anti to hear they only take down the weak. It may happen but few and far between in my eyes. Oh yah and wolves only eat the old and weak also later, Andy

[Big Mike]

Ive found that cougars eat the weak,strong, old, young, middleclass of just about anything they can catch.

Ive found that cougars feed on carion alot more than people think. I found 2 cougars eating on a spoiled bull elk that had been dead rotting for a a couple of days before they strarted eating on it. Ive found where cougars have burried and ate on gut piles of deer and elk left from hunters.

We quartered a deer packed out half and left half for the next day. A cougar came in the night and helped himself to a quarter that we had a jacket covering.

I wonder if some of these CWD deer the cougars were eating were also some they found dead?

[BWTB]

I have to go with the biologists on this one. Just watch a video of any predator chasing a group of animals. They dont care which one they catch they just catch the easiest one and are lucky to catch one at all. As for the big bucks and bulls that are killed If you have ever hunted when these animals are breeding you know the answer to that, and after the rutt they are very weak and often injured. The insident where the lion walked past a sick deer doesn't really surprise me. Many animals will hold still when they see a threat to avoid being seen. They do this because it works. Just sounds like a time when it worked, and the fact that many kills that look like strong healthy animals, next time you see a heard of deer try to pick the weakest in the bunch. I would bet you can't tell. I am no expert just seems logical to me.

[Cowboyvon]

I think like Big Mike said.. but we have found where a high number of bucks have been killed and I believe during a good portion of the year these bucks are somewhat solitary and stay in areas that make them vulnerable to lions.. this could also be mother natures way of sustaining the deer herds ?

[R Severe]

The last two units I've hunted, the lions are targeting elk. They for the most part are ingnoring deer with the exception of a very small cat. The tracks in the snow indicate the small cats try anything that moves except raghorn bulls and up. Sure can't see anything wrong with the elk for the most part. One 6 pt bull two years ago had a injured foot and made his stand in a creek. He lost to a big tom who couldn't drag him out of the creek. He was eaten down to the waterline. A bio and I dragged him out and found the injured foot.

I find young of the year fawns that tom bobs kill pretty often, one so far this year.

The State is doing a prey study in a neibouring unit and some of the info is pretty interesting. It's in it's second year and I've not heard anyone say the kills are anthing other than healthy critters.

[Mike Leonard]

BWTB,

I had to disagree a bit with your analysis on( any) predator catches the one he can.

Feline predators are a bit different than canine predators. Watch if you will on of those Animal Planet shows where they show the lions or cheetahs catching plains game in Africa.

Feline predators go into an altered state once they lock onto target prey. Their movements change, their eyes glaze and focus only on that target. this way they direct all their energy and focus to the success of the kill. Many times you will see other prey animals that almost run into or over the cat while he is making his move on his target. Usually he will not even notice if he does or his focus is broken usually he throws up his tail and excepts defeat, and stops.


I think prey animals moving in an disoriented manner or laying still and not showing much response may cause a lion who is not particularly hungry to just pass it up. That trigger mechanism that just may not go into the cocked postion.

[ChasinTail]

Cats are cats... the lion that came up to a sick deer and walked away was probably a mature lion. Had it been a yearling it probably wouldn't have passed it up. Take house cats for instance... most young house cats will play with a ball of yarn no matter what... moving or not... they toy with it developing their prey instinct... a mature house cat TYPICALLY won't do much with a ball of yarn when it's just laying there...maybe stare at it, swat it once or twice... but roll that ball of yarn across the floor and that cat will pursue if it has any cat instinct at all. This I believe is exactly how mountain lions are. Mt Lions can't really be lumped into the same catagory as all FELINE predators... African lions for instance hunt in prides. They hunt with strategy which equates to brains. They require much less stealth, and their prey instinct is probably not near as keen as a feline predator like a mt. lion or jaguar that hunts solitary and must rely on stealth, speed and brains. Just my opinion...

[Mike Leonard]

Tyler,

I do agree that all African lions can not be all lumped together.I have several Professional Hunter friends in Africa that spend a good deal of time with different prides or clans of lions. Some lions in certain districts for generations have been categorized as pig eating lions. Not sure why they call them pig eating but they difference in them is they prefer to feed or carrion or to steal kills made by other predators.

In other areas very little scavenging is done and most kill and eat fresh meat.

I also agree with your analysis on young or sub adult lions being more likely to mess with what ever.


I was talking to a good friend of mine a couple of days ago and he told me this story.

He had been out in a certain area that he and I had hunted together before in the Virgin River area. He said he struck a big tom trailed him up and treed him. Spent some time with him at the tree and got a good look at him so he knew what he looked like. He then let him go and went home. Next day comes back strikes another tom slightly smaller track same spot, and trails him and after a bit the dogs ball up and then jump and leave. He follows them up and comes upon a kill. He examines the kill and finds it is a 130 pound class tom lion dead with a large feeding of meat taken off and partially buried. He hurried on to the dogs and found them treed with another big tom and clearly not the one he had treed the day before. This lion had one ear bit off and some severe lacerations but was extreemly full from his meal.So there were three adult toms in a very small area. two of which were very large. No female tracks were seen but certainly there must have been a driver for this. But long story short after the fight the big tom was hungry and he ate what was at hand.

You just never know about mountain lions.