e-collar correction

[bobcat]

i have seen several guys on here talking about using the e-collar on their hounds when they think they are back tracking or swinging too wide on a loss.
while i'm not criticizing anyone's methods i just never heard of such a thing. mine get lit up for trashing until they are broke or on the rare instance that i think they are in danger near a road but i would never zap a dog while running the game i want it to run even if it was screwing up.
maybe i'm missing out on something here but i've seen the use/abuse of e-collars do far more harm than good.

this is not meant to offend anyone just get a conversation going on the methods of using them.

[Dads dogboy]

Bobcat wrote: " i've seen the use/abuse of e-collars do far more harm than good."

You are certainly right that ABUSE of the e-collar will do harm, however used judiciously and properly almost ANY fault in a Hound can be corrected.

We have seen Hounds that "Hang-up" on a track corrected,
Hounds who overbarked on an over run (failing to make the corner in Mr. Dewey's terminology),
Hounds who would not come in when a Race is over,
Hounds Backing Tracking,
Hounds failing to answer the "Come Here" command either by voice, Truck Horn or blowing horn,
Hounds fussing in the Dog Box,
Hounds Face Barking in the Pen

And many more things can the e-collar be used to correct. If properly "Backgrounded" with the E-Collar very little SHOCKING is needed to get the Hound to mend it's ways and mind it's manners!

Very good information on the PROPER use of the E-Collar is available on the Tri-tronics website. Mr. John Wick while gone, has his legacy live on in the Training Tips on the E-Collar that you will find on the Tri-tronics site!

[twist]

dogboy said it well. An e-collar in the (right hands) is a valuable tool in all aspects of training. If a hound has been taught as a young dog the correct use of the collar very little shocking has to be done in later stages as the tone button is most of the time all that is needed. Remember there is a difference between correcting and breaking a dog with the e collar, its all in how it is used. The person pushing the button needs to THINK FIRST! Andy

[bobcat]

so what you guys are basically saying is your hounds are e-collar trained when younger to the point that they know that the collar is like a "no" command?
My tritronic had 4 settings. I have beagle pups that i had to go to 4 on to stop them on a deer chase and they would take right off as soon as i let up. it took a few times too. them little buggars are hard headed. also the same collar on my one cat hound, if i even touch the #1 setting for whatever reason, she is at my feet and won't hunt the rest of the day. maybe i need to look into working them more with the collar when younger then and it would be more than just a trash breaker?

[fox hunter]

a lot of people only put a collar on to correct a problem. then shock the piss out of a dog and take it off. a dog should wear a collar off and on for days befor you ever shock it to keep from being collar smart off the bat.and unless running trash should only be tickeled on the lowest level to get the desired comand. i only use the fry setting for trash and aggresive behavior.i also use the collar for basic handling befor i ever take a dog to the woods so i dont have a run away or a dog lock up and freeze the first time it is hit in the woods. you should only try to fix one problem at a time and praise a dog as well for doing good not just tear it up for doing bad.

[RezDogRendezvous]

Mine are used everyday on the chain. I can't stand a dog barking for no reason. That's where I get the most use of mine. I keep two buddies packs here along with mine and it can get pretty loud at times. I had to think about the thought of my dogs only being trained when they have a collar on. And have to say that my three main dogs now seasoned to the collars don't have to have one to mind. It's really nice. One person said it was maybe a lack of discipline or the wrong way to train a dog as I understand. Respecting the argument I would have to disagree. For one reason my dogs are able to be let off the chain and be in control, let out of the box in the woods or wherever in control, come when called, all without a collar on. Im sure it could have been done without the collars in maybe a better way. But that why i got the system. And that's what I want and appreciate. I know this but still strap them on just in case. I don't think it's the wrong way to train, but think it's more of a shortcut at times. With some dogs.

[houndhntr]

I use tri-tronics trashbreaker and put a collar on each of my dogs every time I go out hunting.I start my dogs with the collar from the time they are pups and have very rarely had to shock them.usually only the first year I take them hunting I will use it once or twice when they are running trash and the younger dogs catch on pretty quick. the main reason I use the collars is the tone function.most of the country I hunt in western oregon is pretty rugged with lots of creeks in the bottom of the canyons if the dogs get down next to the creek they have a hard time hearing me if I call them out so I teach my dogs to come back when they hear the tone on the collar and it has worked great.I also use the tracer lights for when they end up out after dark or night hunting I can turn them on with the transmiter and see the dogs crossing an opening or clearing.after the first year just having the collar on seems to keep the dogs in line for me.

[Dads dogboy]

Bobcat,

Our Hounds are introduced to the E-collar at about 3 months of age. They are put on a 40 foot rope allowed to play a little then called by Name and told to "Come Here" and the Rope is tugged SHARPLY!

After the Pup is pulled to the trainer and loved up, it is allowed to venture forth. When it reaches the end of the rope it is called by Name and commanded to "Come Here" the rope is pulled and a TONE is sent to the Pup via the E-Collar.

If the Pup does not come the Trainer continues to call the Pup by Name and the command "Come Here" while pulling the Pup to him/her and sending an intermittent Tone, then the Pup is loved up again.

Now the Pup knows what is wanted. The next time it gets out aways it is Called by Name and told to "Come Here", if it responds it is loved up. If it fails to heed the command then a 1 or 2 setting on the Tri-tronics is administered by pressing the button and mentally counting 1 thousand 1 all the while comamanding to "COME HERE name of Pup" and tugging the Rope.

Next time only the Pups Name and command are given, if the Pup fails to respond then the slight Jolt is given intermittently untill the Pup is at the Trainer.

With a smart Pup it only takes a few Jolts of Elect. before it learns that the relief is to come to the Trainer. Some Pups may need two sessions, few do.

Never spend more than 15 minutes doing this as Pups attention spans are short.

NEVER EVER get MAD and use the E-Collar!

Now you have the Pup "Back Grounded" in the Pressure and Release of the E-Collar. They now know that the tone is a warning to respond to the Command given or thier Neck will get SORE!

Hope this helps!

[Unreal_tk]

Very good explained method Mr. Clay. Wish you would write more for other situations that especially newer houndsmen went threw or will be. IE: Trashing, How to long distance recall, etc I think you would explain it better than most with your detailed writing ability. And maybe buddy could sticky it in the training section.

[floridacathunter]

Hello to all the Clay Clan. Cary, this is an interesting thread. When we take time to train our hounds to mind us, we not only enjoy them more, It enables us to make better use of them, when running a cat. I'm not sure I have ever had a hound that "absolutly" would not trail a cat backwards one step. I have had several, that would determine they were wrong,and turn themselves around on their own. Have had a bunch that would stay wrong until they could'nt smell it anymore and a few that would go back to cats place of birth. If we find a track and determine they are backtracking, we can call them back and put them on the right end, and maybe jump the cat. In my opinion, teaching a young hound to come to ME, when he feels electricity, is a real necessity. I have seen people put an e collar on an unbroke hound, shock him for running trash, and never see dog or collar again. If a hound has been thru a "come here" training session, like you described in your earlier post, and you ever have need to shock him, as soon as he feels the " power" ,he's gonna hunt you up to get some relief, rather than run away. Face barking, fussy in the truck and not coming when called, can easily be corrected, I'm somewhat doubtful about "hanging up on a trail, and giving tongue when they don't smell the game. I think these faults are more on the intelligence side and the others are simply bad behavior. You might make some gains, but it's pretty hard to fix "stupid". Hey, I ain't gonna be disagreeable, I'm just gonna disagree. I would like "Amen" what others on here have said. We can tear up a lot more with the misuse of a shock collar than we can fix.
I'll hush now. John

[bobcat]

I'm liking this thread. I have used the e-collar for many of the problems mentioned suck as teaching a dog to come, stop trashing, or noisy in the box. It is the other stuff like correcting the dog on the track that really intrigue me. Can't seem to get it through my skull how if i teach a dog to come when toned or "tapped" he will know i'm not just wanting him to come if i correct him for say, back tracking or swinging wide on a track and babbling or are hung up on a track. Keep the good stuff coming.

[floridacathunter]

Hey Bobcat, I wonder the same thing. I think bad behavior can be corrected with an e-collar, but I don't see how you can overcome the lack of intelligence by shocking a hound. I believe these problems, are better solved thru better breeding and culling. A shock collar ,when used with care, can make a hound "stop" doing almost anything, but I'm not sure it will make him "start" very much. In other words, "It will fix the Whoa, but I ain't sure about the go". Just my opinion, not right or wrong, just different. I'll hush now. John

[Big N' Blue]

Put in my 2 cents worth! You will accasionaly be able to teach a hound to catch up. Sometime you won't! That is when culling is nessesary. You are right. You can't fix stupid. get it out of the way!!

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. John,

Harold Parker had a very Nice Bitch that he raised that wen back to the Old Corky Hound that you raised that came from Dad somewhere down the line!

Now at one time he said that she was the BEST young Hound that he had, however she started to hang up and "Rub" a Track. Mr. Harold could not stand this so he sold her to Glen Rybard with that 1st set of SC Hounds we found Glen to start Cat Hunting.

Dad told Glen that any time she "Hung Up" to Shock hell out of her! Two things would happen; 1. she would shut up listen to the Pack and go to them or 2. she would come to the Truck where he could haul her to the Race and put her back in.

Glen said that he was afraid that he would "Ruin" her....Dad replied "Hell she is already ruined this might save her".

He did and She learned VERY Quickly that Rubbing a Track was not comfortable. She went on to fulfill her potential makeing a TOP Hound in anybodies Pack. She became a "SPECIAL" Bitch and is the mother to 12 of Dad's, Glen's, and Harold's top young Hounds.

As to "Over Running" a track or giving "TOO Much" Mouth in the wrong places.....with the Garmin's and Hunting these Potlickers as much as we do, when you KNOW that they are not right a Telephone Call (tone) from Tri-tronics usually will make a Hound stop and THINK about why that noise suddenly appeared. If not the next time the transgression occurs a touch of "Litghtening" will sure enough make the Hound THINK.

NO FAULT is uncorrectable with time and Patience and the Smarts to Know How....did not mean for that to sound ARROGANT, cause anyone can read Mr. Wicks Books or his Tips at the Tri-tronics site and learn how to do it.

The MAIN thing is to KNOW your Hounds and what they are SUPPOSED to do properly then you will know if something NEEDS fixing!

[Dads dogboy]

Part 2:

Mr. John,

We sure do agree with your statement “but I don't see how you can overcome the lack of intelligence by shocking a hound”.

And very much agree with this Sentence “I believe these problems, are better solved thru better breeding and culling.”

However GOD and Finney Clay have never YET created the Perfect Hound!

All will either have a period of rebellion or false sense of achievement as Young Hounds when they think that they have the Cat Catching game down pat, when in truth they will NEVER stop learning how to run a Cat.

The traits and faults that I am describing that we can and do correct are generally from a Hound being overly “Aggressive” in their running style. You have seen the Pack run a Cat out to a road then think he went left and start a Road Race to the left when the Cat either went right or straight across the road. If we are standing there (and with the Garmin we darn sure try to be) and see this we are able to make the Hounds Stop and THINK about what they are doing.

STUPID has been removed from Dad’s Hounds generations ago, just as you have described by “Breeding and Culling”. Acting STUPID from INEXPERIENCE happens for several reasons. Being Aggressive in Running the Cat, wanting to be the 1st Hound to put their Mouth on him is different from a DUMMY Hound that can not be Corrected.

Giving TOO much Mouth in the wrong Place, either behind the Pack, where a loose has already been picked up, or going to Hounds who have the Track are Sins where a little Tone or maybe a Jolt will make the Hound THINK about what they are doing.

Smart but Inexperienced Hounds need Guidance from the Handler-Hunter-Houndsman,
at times, to become Better Hounds. Good Breeding and Plenty of Game are necessary, in making a Top Hound, but to get Him/her to do it to suit you takes Initiative and Smarts on the part of the Houndsman!

Just as Dad told Glen: 2 things will happen if the Hound is Shocked or toned, they will STOP the Bad behavior or come to the Truck....a little TIME OUT will sometimes help a Hound just like a Child.