Killing Toms

TRACKER · Post by **TRACKER** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:38 pm

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thomas · Post by **thomas** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:46 pm

I am not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.
I will say this cats are cats and they all fight and they do kill each other.
My big tom barn cats with thier ears ripped off did not come from the females.
barn cats, bob cats, mountain lions all have the same habits.

TRACKER · Post by **TRACKER** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:15 pm

Well I dont totally disagree, but lions arent as social as barn cats for 1. there arent as many together in 1 area. and Tom territories dont overlap.
They get together to breed for the most part.

That said, the point I'm trying 2 make is that killing a Tom can hurt a population ALMOST as much as killing a female. That's what the research claims.

Obviously alot of houndsmen dont care either way. I seen three dead females at the DWR the other day.(THE SAME DAY !)

snowy river black and tan · Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:27 pm

They have research saying killing the big toms helps out the population. The big toms run around killing kittens to make the female cycle. They also kill younger toms so they dont have to compete for the females. I talked to a houndsmen who turned out on a big cat, it was a eight hour race, while he was walking behind the dogs he came across three dead lions killed by this big tom. He finely caught this cat and it was the bigest cat I had ever seen by far. I could see how he could kill three lions. If this old timer was right you would be way ahead taking out only the big ones.

thomas · Post by **thomas** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:35 pm

No

with the size of territory.
I agree big toms will keep things in check but toms do fight toms I have seen battle sights left in the snow and older toms have battle wounds from big game and other cats.
good post but I don't think anybody can prove what acat will do or not do.
There is not enough studies done and I am definately no expert.
I still think it is not rocket science cats are just cats and they products of thier enviroment and habitat.

Onza · Post by **Onza** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:01 am

"Lions are where you find them, and they tend to be there more than often...often not by coincedence" Steve Lithgow

my knowledge of lions is close to nothing, but it seems to me the toms...young or old...know where to look for the queens. Wish I new where to look

I'll have to check out that report...perhaps I'll learn something.

TRACKER · Post by **TRACKER** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:04 am

My personnal opinion is that a Tom will not kill his own young. The reason I say that is because I have seen 2 many kittens and Toms on kills. Just this year I found three kills that they both have been on. The Tom was bedded just a few feet away on 1.

I find it hard 2 beleive he didnt know they came in. The snow the one day was only a few hrs old and there was a female, 2 kittens and this Tom. I treed all but 1 kitten and within 400 yds of eah other.

I think though a roaming juvenile is more likely cause he is running around looking for a home and runs into these females with kittens. The Father Tom I dont beleive is going 2 intentionally look for his own kittns and kill them. Otherwise we wouldnt have any cats at all.

And as 4 another Mature Tom killing these kittens, Why would he leave his territory and what are the chances of finding a kitten if he did.

So I still stick by juveniles as the problem.
Like I said maybe this is better in the cage.

thomas · Post by **thomas** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:16 am

This isn't a argument

it is a discussion and all parties have already noted what they know about cat habits you could put in a thimble.
But we all colectively have seen more than any biologist will in two life times.
Trust me do't go to the cage the discussiion will get hijacked by the 3 musketeers and then nobody will give there thoughts and testimonies to your post it is agood one and some good ole boys will respond wait and see.
No cat hunter can pass up a big tom story including myself.
All I know is the big toms around these parts love Pocupines and how they eatem and leave nothin but the skin licked clean I have no Idea.
a old cat hunter once told me a porcupine is like a delicacy to lions.
My be I just left a clue in that last paragraph :wink:

Yaak attack · Post by **Yaak attack** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:27 am

I have been hearing this theory for a while now and I really don't know how true it is. Houndsmen have killed 13 toms and one female the last two seasons in one hunting district where I hunt and I have found around 15 females with kittens this season there. I don't think all toms kill kittens all the time and I don't think all toms kill eachother all the time, but they do both some times. Harvesting more toms has definitely caused our lion population to grow along with plenty of food. The idea that a tom's territory won't overlap anothers does not hold true here. I think the lower the tom to female ratio the less competition there is and thus less friction between males. The toms breed at a younger age and have to travel less. The females still get bred and you see very few beat up cats in areas that the older toms get more hunting pressure. The down side is very few trophy cats. The up side is many more races.

TRACKER · Post by **TRACKER** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:57 am

The way I look at it is if those Toms were let 2 live you have seen 15 females with kittens and 13 Toms. Give or take a kitten or 2.

I would like 2 know how many cats were juvenile though. This is just some Biologists theory, I tend 2 make up my own conclusions.

nmplott · Post by **nmplott** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:39 am

how many studies stated this fact? One research study doesn't mean a whole lot...after all thats how wolf reintroductions began...one study showed the promise of re-releasing a top predator into a stable ecosystem would actually aid in the stabilization....and some genius people with $$$ backing pushed and now the ecosystems with wolves are less stable than before. The number one thing learned in biology classes are studies need to be replicated to be truely valid.

Spanky · Post by **Spanky** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:02 am

According 2 the Dwr Research, Killing a Mature Tom is almost as detrimental as killing a female.

The reason is : Toms have an established home range with many females within his territory. When they come in to estrus he knows it and obviously breeds them.

Younger Toms have territory issues and only breed by sure chance. Thats if the female lets him breed her.

4 a healthy population kill young Toms or dont kill at all. Of course I'd hate 2 ruin your ego a bit.

glad this post has not been ruined yet and thrown in the cage. As for the statement.....hate to ruin your ego but when has DWR ever gotten anything right? Our Elk population is being destroyed by wolves because of bullshit studies such as the one you quoted.

Any good houndsmen knows that a dominant Tom has a home range and in my opinion that ranges varies in size based on terrain, total lion population and water/food sources. Yes there are several females in his home range that over lap one another. Yes they kill kittens too for social order whether its based on food abundance or to bring females back in.

It only takes one Tom to services several females. Each female when serviced will put down 3-4 kittens on average but that does not mean they all survive. We all like to see a healthy buck to doe or bull to cow ratio but again its usually only the dominant buck/bull that does the breeding passing on the better of the genes.

So if harvesting Toms is detrimental to the population then how is it the lion population today is one of the true success stories of wildlfie management over the last century? Houndsmen have proven to be a vital management tool in controlling the lion populations across the country whether through permits or quotas. Egos had no part in that.

We finally got our lions in a permit and a female sub quota now, the quality of toms is only getting better and we are harvesting more toms each year and our population is rising. So as for the study maybe thats what you should follow in utah but not here in montana. Just my opinion.

treed · Post by **treed** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:03 am

Well , I guess I will chide in here a bit...I worked on a lion study last year.We collared lions with collars that were equipped with GPS and Telemetry all in one collar...The biologist would do a fly over each month and get a read out on the collared lions...They would download info off the collars via the GPS and the computer would spit out a map showing the movement of each lion over a period of time....

At one time , there were 3 Toms in this one canyon where this female was . She was obviously in heat and the Toms were checking her out...When the female was bred, she moved out of the area to have her kittens...One female moved in to an area that had no trees or even big bushes...You would never expect a lion to be there.. I have always felt that the female goes looking for the Tom when she is in heat and the study showed that...

As far as territories were concerned, I would say only half stayed in one territory, females included... We had 1 female that moved almost 100 miles from the place where she was collared...

Here is a fact...Toms move where there are food and females....Young Toms move the same, but will stay out of the bigger Toms way...Big Toms move where they want ...

Here is the biggest thing the study showed and is still showing...When one Tom moves out of an area for whatever reason, a new Tom will come in....If a female is removed from the area, Toms will leave that area per say.....WHERE THERE ARE FEMALES, THERE WILL BE TOMS...

I would have to call out the DWR on this one ...No way is killing a Tom is going to have the same affect on the lion population as killing a queen....I mean think about it Tracker..Think about the role of each lion...The Tom eats and breeds with females....The female eats, has babies, and then feeds,teaches ,protects, and raises her kittens,,,,How can it be almost as detrimental killing a Mature Tom versus a female..

A younger Tom has no problem breeding with a female if a bigger Tom is not around....

Just some info....Coop

R Severe · Post by **R Severe** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:52 am

Good stuff here, gotta agree with both Spanky & Treed.

I've looked over the info from every study I can get my mitts on. They are only as good as the grad student who usally sets it up. They also only apply to the area that the study was done. Some other area my be almost the same but not quite.

I listen to a Grad student praticing her speach on a bunch of Bio's one day. Her study was a prey study, and she had determined that deer were the major prey of some collared lions that were still wearing collars from a density study.
This didn't sound right to me as I hunted a unit next to it that I found three elk to every deer killed by lions.
At the end of her speech I started quizing her where she was looking for her kills. Long story short , she only looked where the deer where, due to the tougher access to elk country in the winter.

It made her mad when I pointed this out, she also had a opinion that houndsmen were killing only toms. Tried to tell me that because African lions killed kittens when claiming a new pride, our lions probably did the same.

If you look at most of these studies, they are done by a kid just finishing up thier masters degree. Really smart folks but short on that class they should teach called the school of hard knocks, or the most important one, common sense. Most of them get it right down the road aways but usally from making the mistakes just like the rest of us.
just my two cents thats only worth one :lol:

bearcat · Post by **bearcat** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:01 pm

I don't necessarily pay a lot of attention to these studies, because most of them know what results they want (or expect) before the study is began. and that is usually the results they get. I do know though that more than one tom do at times occupy the same area particularly in the winter when the game is concentrated.