fuel for thought on cat pop. in mt.

[old timer]

I have been reading over the comments on cat pop. again. I think that big blue, ringo and some others have it right. I mentioned about how cat pop. follow pray density and a few other minor things. so these are my thoughts on big toms and the cat pop..When the state took the bounty off the cats. a lot of the old hunters stopped hunting them. It was not worth there time. Up to that time they shot everything. At this point a new breed of cat hunters emerged. I was one of them. When we started hunting we still shot just about everything eccept females and kittens and they were far and few between, it was just something the few of us hunters decided to do. Knowbody made us do it. That started to help some. Put we did target the big cats and we were succesfull at it. It takes a long time I think to understand the complicity of any big game animal. (just ask the fish and game, there still trying to figure it out). I hear arguments on whether we should shot small cats or not. I think you need to shot a cross section of cats to have a heathy pop.. One thing big cats are good at is killing kittens. I can not tell you how many kittens I have seen killed by big cats over the years. Slowly as we killed big cats more kittens started to survive. Pretty soon we started to see bigger litters of surviving one year olds. with a shorter season the cat pop. exploded. At about that point is when we seen an explosion of a new kind of houndsman. Go back in history, most of the state had no cats or vary few, now they are state wide. We are in no danger of loosing our cats as long as good men do not quit. All i can say is Big Blue and others, do not quit, I like what you have to say.

[BIGBLUES]

Thanks for reading my posts. Everything I say is from what Myself and other houndsmen that are friends of mine find while out running lions. Like I said I spent almost a minimum of 5 days a week in the woods this winter and this is what I found. A more than healthy lion population with youngins and a lower big tom population. Now this is only in Lolo creek, fish creek, petty creek, graves creek, bear creek, and other drainages off Lolo creek. I also saw a good population on the east side of the bitterroot with a few big toms. It makes perfect sense to me that because of a 4.5 month permit pick and choose season, we are left with fewer big toms and a out of control sub and kitten population in some areas. I'm not trying to argue with anyone on here but I know what I have found this year and no one can tell me any different. I also believe Missoula Special Management holds one of the healthiest, diverse lion populations in the lower western half because of the open quota system. I realize some of these lions are ones that have filtered in from surrounding areas, but because of the option for anyone with a tag to harvest a lion in this area it has allowed for some of the nicest toms around to develop and mature. I have cousins in the west end that have been hunting that area for 30+ years and they have came to the same conclusion. The last 4 years they were harvesting nice 150+ toms and now they say the big tom population is down. Like I said before its my belief that a open quota system with a lower harvest objective is what I would feel most adheres to a healthy lion population. For example I think hd 202 could go for a 10-12 lion harvest objective and more than maintain a healthy population. Its my thought that Missoula Special Management area is doing more justice for the lion population as a whole than any other hd down here. I could be wrong but its what I think. I like hearing others input but not the sarcasm. I would rather have the sarcasm be brought to me when you meet me in person. Thanks again Old Timer for looking at my posts.

[dhostetler]

The season closed saturday with me not filling my permit for 2 years in a row in HD 100. I was thinking of next year not applying for a permit and just purchase a general liscence to hunt somewhere else in a quota area. However it seems kinda stupid to drive several hundred miles to hunt when I have treed numerous cougars within a mile from my house.

A friend of mine has also not filled 2 tags in 100 and he doesn't even try to look for a big tom as he claims they just aren't around but he likes to have a tag in his pocket in case he does stumble on a big tom.

One thing good about having those tags, I hunted a lot harder and hunted a lot more country then I would otherwise have.

[switzie]

old timer I've been hunting lions since 1976 in woyming and I do believe as you do I think your absulutly right about the big cats killing the kittens and the pop has grown there not as big but a lot more more cats. But there is a lot more cat hunters also wich isn't bad I've got a lot more peaple to hunt with and I need these young guys know it seems a lot futher to the tree than it use to.

[old timer]

amen to that, mountains seem a lot stepper and higher than they use to be,

[Lost River]

I am not trying to be a smart a$$ but I am wondering if folks feel that if we kill more cats with this quota system instead of a permit season that is will somehow produce bigger cats. I strongly disagree with the Missoula Management Zone producing big cats, but everyone has their personal feeling of what a big cat is. I think there is a high percentage of big cats that are turned in as being killed in the zone that are actually harvested outside the zone by general permit holders and I also think the bigger cats that may get killed in the zone are big toms that are on a walk about looking for a girlfriend and get caught in the zone by all the gents with dogs who have a general tag in their pocket.
I don't want to go back to the days of 500-700 miles of running to find a cat to run. Like I said, not trying to get anyones hackles up, but I am confused by some of the statements. Happy hunting, Casey

[old timer]

Hi casey, You are not being a smart you know what. you have asked a very good guestion and it does not have a very easy answer. I am not done with my history telling yet and how we came to be were we are at today. This hole process is a give and take of Idea's. I am still learning as I go.

[BIGBLUES]

I am not trying to be a smart a$$ but I am wondering if folks feel that if we kill more cats with this quota system instead of a permit season that is will somehow produce bigger cats. I strongly disagree with the Missoula Management Zone producing big cats, but everyone has their personal feeling of what a big cat is. I think there is a high percentage of big cats that are turned in as being killed in the zone that are actually harvested outside the zone by general permit holders and I also think the bigger cats that may get killed in the zone are big toms that are on a walk about looking for a girlfriend and get caught in the zone by all the gents with dogs who have a general tag in their pocket.
I don't want to go back to the days of 500-700 miles of running to find a cat to run. Like I said, not trying to get any ones hackles up, but I am confused by some of the statements. Happy hunting, Casey

Casey, I don't believe that having a open quota with a high harvest will produce bigger toms. That just doesn't make any sense right? But what does make sense to me is having a manageable harvest quota for each area without the slaughter of the population. This I believe will give a more diverse harvest with subs, small toms and big toms being killed and yes a female or two. I believe this will allow for a better chance for bigger lions by filling the quota with a diverse harvest.
As for big lions coming from Missoula S M A we have taken quite a few nice toms the biggest being 175 lbs. Last year my woman shot a 145 lb tom there and it had a bone dry belly. My buddies on the blackfoot kill 2-4 big toms a year out of special management. When I say big toms I mean 140 lb minimum. The missoula sma is usually only open for a month and it is done. Just think of how many big toms never even move down by the end of december. Hell I could be wrong but this is what I think.

[old timer]

There's some conversation on here about whats the best way to manage our resources. Nobody has the magic answer, none exist. what you do is put together some great idea's and work on them. No one plan will work for everybody. I can tell you how we got to where we are today. Whether it was the right thing or not, who can tell. If I remember right this started to take place about 20 years ago. region 1 has been the hot bed for cat hunting and what happened up here affected the rest of the state. The reason for this is it's 80 percent national forest, lots of access, with the road system we have you can go almost anywhere. The other reason is we almost always have snow on opening day. As we started to kill more cats, human nature took over and we started bragging about it, me included. What we didn't know was the houndsman back east was listening and taking notes. As a hunter I do not blame them. I do not remember exactly what year we went to a quota system. At first it wasn't bad, but we know it would not last. More and more out of state hunters were showing up, some outfitters where taking more than there fair share, but not of the outfitter were. Between the 2 groups they were harvesting about 80 percent of the cats, which left very few for the residence, that was not going to work. Within 2 or 3 years the quota was being over shot by almost double in some area's in the first 24 to 48 hours. We were battling the anti hunters, they were threatening a law suit, the reason for the quota in the first place. The fish and game set up a board of 14 people through out the state to come up with something that would work, I was one of the board members. We spent the next 2 years working on this. Going to a lot of meetings, maybe some of you were setting on board to. (I am tired), I will go into the details later how we came up with what we have in place now.

[old timer]

I have given this next part a lot of thought. I do not think I can put 2 years of meetings and condence them in 1 page. If you are getting tired of my thoughts let me know and i will stop. The board was formed to keep us from a law suit with the anti hunters and looseing our hunting. Our first meeting was held in Seely Lake in the dead of winter. I think the only district that was not represented was destrict 7. There was 2 from each district. myself and one other that did not represent any districts, there was also two 2 fish and game guys. Our first goal was to identify the problem. Which I idintifyed in my last blog. Once everybody was up to speed on the problem we started kicking around ideas. There was a lot of questions and theories brought up. What was the best salution for our problem. Everybody wanted a draw ranging from region 1 only to a state wide draw. I was the only one against it. I thought it was to drastic without trying other avenus first. we all agread the biggest problem was the out of state hunters, second was a couple of greedy outfitters. Who does the draw hurt. Right off the bat, outfitters, in a draw only 10 percent can go to out of staters. The second is the cats themselves. As I have said before, I presonally think you need to shot a cross section of cats. everybody wants to shot a big cat and thats what happens if you have a draw only season. There's not enough big cats to go around same as elk, deer and moose. I am not sure what most people consider big is. If you truly shoot 1 big cat in your life time you are doing good. I am talking about a 170lbs. to 190lbs. cat. That would be like shooting a 380 plus point bull elk, how many of those have you shot. I can tell you from all the the cats we have killed only 2 went over 180lbs. One cat that was gutted went 186lbs. that was in 1978, the other one went 187lbs. and was whole, that was in 1999. I might have treed 2 others that may have been that big that we did not shot.

[BIGBLUES]

That is some good information. I think there has to be a better system than the permit system because it is flawed. I still believe a quota system with manageable harvest objectives will work the best. As far as the out of state tags, the out of state people should be more than welcome to come compete for our game with a reasonable price on a tag. I don't believe the outfitters should be able to overrun it either. It shouldn't be as hard as some individuals have made it to manage a lion population. Their is enough people that would be more than happy to work with fwp in figuring out the abouts of the lion population. I think they need more meetings with the public and talk to the fellas that are in the field a lot to figure out management numbers and goals.

[old timer]

Thats my point, a new board needs to be set up again, same as the other board with representation from each district including outfitters, just like before, otherwise nothing will get done. It will take time and money put if it's worth saveing, then it most be done.

[Badlandcat]

How about keeping the draw and having separate male and female tags? I for one would sign up for the board to better manage the lions in MT.

[BIGBLUES]

How about keeping the draw and having separate male and female tags? I for one would sign up for the board to better manage the lions in MT.

I don't think that would work much different because you still have over 4 months to pick and choose. I think a 1 or 2 month kill season with general tags would work great as long as the quota wouldn't be too drastic. What do you think?

[old timer]

that's why you have a board, so you can come up with these kinds of solutions. You figure what the problem is, find out what,s best for the greater good. Remember there will never be a perfect answer. We do the best that we can.