BIG GAME BREEDING

[mike martell]

I HAVE SEEN IT ALL ON THESE POSTS. THE DECLINE OF ALL MAJOR BREEDS DEBATE. I WANT SOME FEED BACK ON NT. CHAMPION BLOOD IN BIG GAME HOUNDS V.S. P.R. BRED DOGS, FROM BIG GAME HUNTING LINES. FOR EXAMPLE MY LINE OF DOGS ARE THE ORIGINAL LINE OF WHITE CLOUD STRAIN, TRAITS INCLUDE A DOG THAT DOES NOT SLIDE IN AND TREE, THEY LOCATE, PULL A SMALL CIRCLE , THAN WHEN SURE THE GAME HAS NOT TAPPED TREE, THAN AND ONLY THAN DO THEY SIT DOWN AND TREE, AS ANOTHER THING, NOT ONE WILL HONOR THE OTHER, EACH HAS TO BE SURE THE GAME IS TREED OR ELSE THEY WILL PULL OUT, EXAMPLE IF A DOG IS SLICK TREED THEY WILL CHECK IT OUT THAN PULL OUT AND CATCH THE GAME, I HAVE A HARD TIME COMPREHENDING A DOG THAT HAS THE GAME AS I SEE 85/90 %OF THE TIME. IN MY 6 GENERATION PEDIGREES, THERE IS THREE NITE CHAMPION DOGS IN THE SIXTH GENERATION ONLY, ALL ARE P.R. BRED. BACK IN THE OLD DAYS I SAW MANY NT. CH. BRED HOUNDS SLICK TREE. JUST WONDERING WHAT YOU ALL THINK , I KNOW WHAT I THINK , I LIKE TO HAVE THE GAME UP WHEN I GET THERE, HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENSE, AS THIS SHOULD JUST BE A FUN TOPIC,

[bearcat]

I agree, I've seen a lot of competition bred dogs false tree, my dogs check around before they settle down and tree. A lot of times on a bobcat, it'll be 5 minutes or so until they start to tree, but when they settle in you can load the gun. I like them that way, but you wouldn't win many nite hunts with them. Guess it depends on what you want to do with your dogs.

[mike martell]

BEARCAT, THANKS FOR THE INPUT, YEAH MINE WOULD GET LAST TREE IN A COMPETITION HUNT . BUT I KNOW THE GAME WOULD BE THERE !! HOPE TO SEE A BUNCH OF REPLIES ON THIS AS IT COULD GET VERY INTERESTING,

[DWD58]

Mike, you are correct in your assumptions as far as competition bred hounds are bred to tree a little too quick sometimes, and also anymore, they are bred to pass up cold tracks and get to something hot. This is also a detriment to a big game hunter. Not all lines have been ruined by the night hunts, but I would say that 75% of the big game hunters will tell you that the night hunts have hurt most of the modern day hounds. Keep those White Clouds as pure as you can, they aint much more of that blood left anymore. I am not far from where Gurvis and Clyde Mullins raised and hunted them dogs, and I can tell you that there aint no more of that blood around here anymore. There is a little in NC and SC and Florida, and I recon a little in Arizona still, but that is about it. When Bobby Lyles sold out, most of it back east got spread out pretty thin. I hunted with a few of them dogs, and while they have their faults ;like most any other line, they make good big game hounds!

[mike martell]

dwd, thanks for the reply, my good friend john in b.c. was close to gurvis before he passed, you are right i have found nothing along the line of the pure white cloud , i now have everything right here for the future, after taking a trip to the east coast i found these dogs have been crossed onto another good family of dogs, but as far as i am concerned none are worth feeding, the family of dogs are fantistic in their own right, some of the best name big game dogs in the business, they just do not cross well, i will not mention the lines as i would get lots of hate mail, just stating the facts, i long for knowledge , been at it a good long time ,but always stand to learn! main reason for the post,

[Travis Stirek]

Mike,you and most people on here know that I nite hunt probably as much or more than anyone on this board.I feel the titles don't mean as much as the bloodline.Some bloodlines are as you describe(slick tree,hot nosed) but I can and have taken the kind COONDOG that you described,as the kind you like to hunt, and haul him just about anywhere in the United States and win ALOT of nite hunts by doing just as you described treeing coon as you come to them and having the meat.The idiots that alot of guys hunt in the hunts usually kill themselves with minus points.In your first post you describe two of the most important things of a winning nite hunt dog as characteristics you and alot of big game hunters including myself look for,TREE AND HAVE THE MEAT(slicks and circle trees DON'T win hunts),and DON'T BACK A SLICK TREER(Independent minded dogs that can and will do their own work).So I guess my answer is if you do your homework there are some bloodlines that even though they carry the dreaded titlesLOL do cross over very well.

[mike martell]

travis, i'm bored, ok, if i would not have hurt my back and had it cut on i would not even turn my computer on,i would have a real life or be out hunting....more! lol. this is my therapy ,cheaper than a shrink my old line as you very well know was all n.c. dogs amos was my stud dog ,his dad was none other than woods creek loose bruce, you knew kate real well, i averaged 30 bear, 30-35 lion, 20-25 bobs and 200 coons a year with those two dogs. that was all i needed, back on to houses chief dog. they kicked butt big time, hey i just hung up with john in b.c. looks like next week the snow will be off enough to get around, when i get done bear hunting , i will hunt you down , buy you a cup of coffee,

[Travis Stirek]

Yea supposed to be 90's here on thursday and friday.I hope so,then maybe Bobbie can get out on the res. she's driving herself crazy.She shoulda been on quite a few by now.One good thing since she is being bear deprived this spring sounds like I get to go to Wisconsin for training season again LOL

[mike martell]

travis, i'm chipewa indian, registered with my tribe in north dakota ,my family is from eastern montana, i don't get to hunt any res. i really don't care about being indian, i just want hunting privileges, how does that work for bobbie?

[Travis Stirek]

Hey Mike since Clinton granted all the different Indian nations their Soverignty(spelling?) every tribe is different.Like with the Colvilles if you ain't Colville you ain't going if it involves dogs LOL I get to watch videos when her and the nephew get home LOL I keep trying to tell them every indian needs a whiteman they can treat as badly as their descendants were LOL I'll drag like a rented mule.LOL but no go. But if you stop by this spring I will try to dig up some treaty numbers that may help you get started.

[Travis Stirek]

Mike,when I got Kate from Buzz he had two Faulk bred dogs that I bought too.Did they come from you also?

[mike martell]

travis ,no i did not own any of sam's dogs,i hunted some with sam, boy what powerhouse bear dogs that man had, i saw a post on a pup from happy camp ca. spanky was the last to comment on, had cascade line, i would have to look closer at the pedigree, as bill paetsch, from lebanon oregon had the cascade line, kates, dad and mom were cascade rowdy and cricket, as you know the caliber dog she was, travis i caught probably 75 bears or more with her alone on the coast, not easy going and probably some were around 100 lion alone, 300 career bear and 300 career lion, easy with that dog , hell she was the reason i quit hunting the plotts , and i had some of the all time great brindles, i remember her first bear tree, a sow and cub at florance oregon she was 10 months old , she got out hard on a track, treed by herself , she never looked for help!!! as for the res, yeah , i'm a hypocrite, i would not tell you what i would be willing to do to hunt there. all goes well i will see you soon,

[dgarrett]

Lots of biggame guys blame the comp night hunting on the decline of all the breeds. Its all a bunch of bs. I agree that there are some tree slamming hounds out there and some strains are more prone to it then others. If ukc had a rule that coon must be seen or it was minus points it might change they way the breed there dogs. But anyways they took the time and expense to breed dogs to there way of hunting to win. What stopped 95% of the biggame guys from breeding there own dogs that had the nose and tree abilities that they wanted. Because it took 20-30 yrs and a wheelbarrow full of money? Maybe it was just easier to buy pups and have they dogs fixed so they didnt have fights and heat problems so they could hunt everyday they wanted to. I used to love to coonhunt also and there wasnt a dog we kept that wasnt a biggame/coon dog if they didnt do both we didnt want em. To me athe same things were needed for a great coon dog as a biggame dog, trackabilty,locate and stay put tree dog. jmo dgarrett

[mike martell]

dgarrett, good perspective, i was just wanting some debate here, viewpoints from both sides of the fence, i have had it both ways over many years of hunting, that is reason for the post to see how others weigh in on the topic, thanks

[pete richardson]

i have had it both ways over many years of hunting, yup me too ,
guess i could argue on either side of this one -

some of best i ive seen came from all coondogs

some of best ive seen was beardogs for generations-

seen some beardog for generations crossed with all coondog --some of that hi powered coondog stuff seemed to put just a little more fire in them--

more desire means , more nose ,more speed also might mean- barks on chain ,runs trash ,drives me nuts ,etc

what makes them good ,makes them bad-



i will breed to a beardog over a coondog --but if i see something working , im all over it - whether its coondogs or not


d garrett is rite on the money--if a guy is breeding a lot of top end competition coondogs, he doesnt need to be real concerned what the big game hunter thinks of them--