Competition Hounds

[Justaguy]

Hey



Now I have thought about this for a long time and did not ever submit the post because I figure the whole world is going to come unglued once this is posted. But since the site has not had a big time battle in a few weeks I think I will put this out there for positive as well as negative comments.

Now I have to start off by saying that I think most of the breeds have either attained this status or are doing their very best to get to the same place but I will use the Walkers as they are by far the ones leading this rush to the death of their line of registered dogs. Now I also have to admit up front that I have lived all my 60 plus years in the west so I have never been to a competition hunt and can only go by word of mouth and the write ups that different hound magazines have produced over the last 40 years or there bout's. But a blind man can see the results of competition hunting on the hound world in general.

I am a firm believer that in the chase to get Championships attached to their dogs names the walker breed, or least the competition dogs, has been turned into a bunch of hard headed, independent, slick treeing, growly dogs as a whole. Now all of the dogs do not have all of these fine points but a great number do and if you are just a run of the mill hunter you do not know which of these traits the line of dog you may think you would want has. All you have to do is read the adds of these so called great dogs and you read things like young starter and pressure tree dogs etc. You know you could also say slick treeing, hard headed, independent dogs and in a lot of the cases the latter is a better description of the dogs. Since I am a pleasure hunter and always will be I am not sure if the fame, money or competition drove the owners and handlers to this point but hey you guys made it and the real funny part is that you have the Black and Tans, English and others running as fast as they can to join you.

Now like I said I pleasure hunt and have never been bitten by the competition bug but I would think if we in the hound world broke the dogs out into groups then you would have your field trial dogs, competition style dogs and last but not least the big game and small game hunting dogs. Now I did not generate this post in an attempt to attack the competition dogs, owners, handlers or any sponsors that happen to be out there . I did write this in an attempt to point out to new hunters that if they buy spot out of dog champion "XYZ" that they may or may not get a dog they can take to the woods and catch game with on a Friday night. And with money as hard to come by as it is that is a lot of money in some cases... Pups going for hundreds if not more... but hey if the market will bare it so be it....



Now I have stated an opinion and I am open to all thoughts pro and con to the post... So lets hear what you got to say and please no cussing as their are some of the readers young enough to not have to read such words...

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I'm not sure what point your trying to make? I think as a whole, all houndsmen, especially us western big gamers know that the top competition dogs of the east, have been getting increasingly this way for the past 10-15 years.

That said I own registered Walkers. I catch more bear, fox and coon than I care to boast about, and I also have just about every dog I own titled on the Bench, Field Trial, and I have a NiteCh and other dogs with wins toward Nitech. We have a UKC (as well as AKC & PKC sanctioned) competition club here in California, as well as Oregon and Washington, Montana and Utah... A lot of what I have came from back east origionally one or two generations back. I have some that go back to some of the first registered walkers in the state of California, that have been bred out here for the past 10 or more generations. You couldn't give me some of those dogs from back East, especially out of certain lines. I wouldn't even own 3/4 of the dogs they say make beardogs out there. Just not my style. There are still some good registered dogs and bloodlines floating around from back east, they are getting dang hard to find.

I will say I have had a couple that prefered to be independent, if they could, they would go tree there own bear, but if there wasn't that much game to be found, they'd be with the others. The worst fault I see, besides aggression, coming out of those dogs to me is babblers. I cannot stand a babbling hound. I think the slick tree aspect is worse back there because of the way they train them. I've actually had some real slow to come onto treeing and they are super accurate.


I agree though. Buyer beware. If I was looking for a new pup. It wouldn't be out of Flavor of the Month with a 2 page color spread.

[Justaguy]

Thanks Cassandra

I could not agree with you more !

[cobalt]

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a competition bred dog.
If I put the expectations more on myself than the dog I feel I'll have a good shot at making an acceptable hunting partner.
30% the dog (hunting desire, conformation and temperament). 70% me (ability to make the most out of what the dog has in it).
Hard core hunters (5% or less IMO) need to be more discerning of the quality of dog/pup they acquire.
If STYLE (nose, speed, voice, etc.) is a variable in choosing a dog then it is your responsibility to search out crosses that fit your description.
Hunters who consistently have good dogs are consistent, good trainers.

[dhostetler]

I go to about 3 field trials a year and my dogs typically don't do very well at field trials but I go anyway to support the hound clubs. Me and a local friend usually go together to those field trials and his dogs have more speed at those drags and he just smokes me at these field trials. This summer my friend was out of town for several months and I took care of his dogs while he was gone so I ran his dogs with my dogs on bear. It was a different story on an actual race. A 3 mile race my front dogs usually a 1/2+ mile lead on his front dogs. I believe good dogs can do well at field trials but I believe it is a mistake buying a good scoring field trial dog at a field trial and expecting it to translate into a great hunting dog.

[Justaguy]

You know Dhostetler your dogs or any dogs that are hunted know the difference between a real track and a 4 to 6 inch wide swipe of some kind of stink rubbed along the ground. I like going to the field trials they are a lot of fun and I get to see and talk with old friends but like you only once or twice did I ever run my dogs in a race. Now I would put them in a treeing contest now and then to help out when there were not enough entries but field trials where they lay a track for the dogs to run is a totally different game(pardon the pun) than most regular hunting hounds ever see.

[dhostetler]

Justaguy, I run strictly Big Game and the only training my young dogs get is on Big Game. I prefer not to have tree hogger dogs, so I purposely don't try to get my dogs to fired up about rearing on trees to tree. So most of my dogs tree fairly loose, when I enter into treeing contests I always scratch.

[Justaguy]

You know dhostetler maybe I am not reading your post correctly but the few field trials out this way I entered a dog in a treeing contest there was really no way to hype up a dog when treeing. If I am wrong I am sorry but by the rules out here the dogs could be spoken to by the handler one time at the beginning of a 1 minute timed period. If the handler said another word during the minute the dog was disqualified. Now you had two judges counting the number of times the dog barked tree and of course the one with the most won.

Now I am sure that I miss understood you as I have seen a lot of hunters including myself urge their dog to tree a lot more than that just to let them know they were doing a good job. Again I am sure I am not reading your comment correctly !

[dhostetler]

Justaguy, Yes the way you described is the way our treeing competitions are done. What I was trying to say when I am hunting I don't try to get my dogs hyped up to rear on trees. I believe there is a greater chance of tree fights if you have dogs trying to climb tree trunks and falling on other dogs etc., so when I go into a tree I usually don't go directly to the tree truck and stay 10 to 20 feet away that way dogs come to me to be praised etc. I know this is contrary to how almost all other hound guys do but I prefer my dogs to set back to tree rather than hog the tree. Because of the way I hunt I have a problem keeping my dogs in a treeing contest circle for 1 minute.

[Tom A]

Here you go pretty funny if the facts were real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEI2jbQ5RCc

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I neer said Field trials were in any way the same as a Nite Hunt. I have some dogs that love running the trials, and some that flat out won't run them. My slowest hunting dog is my best trial dog. When my fastest dog would run them, she was hard to beat. But she since decided she's over that whole program. Any dog that is hunted knows the difference. Typically you have to train them to do the drags, as you would teach them to run a different species of game. Cause coon piss rubbed on some old saddle leather ain't natural. Usually the ones that will run them and do good are the ones that get bored easy, or aren't all the way there, wired a little higher. A good smart dog will usually tire of it quickly. I have some that if I have laid them up, they will half ass it. But if I am hunting them like normal, forget it. I like going and having a good time, and putting titles on my dogs. From Show, Field Trial, Water Race and Nite Hunt. But the only thing that matters in the long run in keeping my nameplate and a food dish at my house is how they perform in the woods first, secondly how they act around the house, the rest is just nice to have.

Nite Hunting is just that, coon hunting. Keeping track of the hunt with a scorecard. Most dogs don't know the difference than any other night of hunting. I have owned 2 dogs in the past that did seem to know a little. They did have a little more hustle and independence when I cut them loose with 3 strange dogs and none of the other pack mates.

For the most part I do have competition bred dogs. But I do my homework. I do think there are a lot out there that just plain aren't suited for someone new to dogs or looking for a big game dog.

[mondomuttruner]

Tom A...
That was some funny sh!t right there..

[al baldwin]

Anyone who has never taken their best to a nite hunt & hunted under a fair judge who knew the hunt rules & enforced those rules might want to try it. It just might be a real eye opener, making you realize dogs that are winning major hunts are much better hound than one thought. Just an opinion I have after a very, very limited experience at nite hunts. For sure most would not want hounds that open as free as I prefer on older scent. Al

[Big N' Blue]

Tom A...
That was some funny sh!t right there..

I agree!! that was hilarious!!!

As far as competition hunts are concerned, the handler is 75%, hound 25%. JMHO
I threw away a 20' horse trailer full of trophy's many years ago when a good solid coon dog could not win a hunt against hot nosed, go yonder, slick treeing tree dogs that coons are invented in.
When I first started competition hunting, it was not like that!! The best dog usually won and had the ability to tree a hot coon or a cold one. Hot and fast is what it takes now, and that does not
suit my hunting style.
If it does yours, I have no problem with that.
Everyone needs to hunt what suits them.
My wife's uncle and a very good friend, that I will not mention his name could beat any hound in the world with a dog leash. LOL I have seen them draw out together a few times and it was always worth being a guest on that cast! LOL They did know hounds and within 10 minutes would know yours better than you do!! LOL
I never was like that!! I was always slow and dim-witted!!

[Tbblue]

Competition dogs n biggame hounds shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.