Grey fox dogs

[johnadamhunter]

I am considering starting a pack of dogs to run fox. I run primarily bobcat now but our cat numbers are low in areas large enough to run dogs. If I could run fox and cat both I think the odds of having a successful hunt would perhaps be doubled. I really prefer not to run red fox as they tend to cover a lot more real-estate. Hence my question is: Can a dog be broke off reds and still be willing to run greys. I have read that in breaking a dog off fox that one must break off reds and greys separately; however, an old fox/coyote hunter told me recently that a dog that runs greys will also run reds.... you can't break them off one and not the other.
What do you think?[b]

John Sumrall
601 422 3335[/b]

[Jkohnke]

I'm not going to say it can't be done but I wouldn't wont the task of doing it. I prefer to run the red fox over the grey. Just cause he picks up and runs and gives a good race. Also reds and greys tend to inhabit 2 different kinds of woods. Greys liking the thick cutovers and reds tend to be in the more open big timbered areas. I would think there would not be much difference in the scent they give making it a tough task to break a dog off one or the other. Think I'm going to run one tonight.

[scrubrunner]

I think I have read on here somebody said their hounds would run grey fox but not reds but I don't know. I have ran fox all my life and my hounds have always ran either one. Like Jkohnke I wouldn't want the task of trying. At times which ever one you happen to be running is going to go somewhere that you don't want them to go so I think you would be better off to train your hounds to stop and come when you tone, blow your horn, shoot a gun or something like that. At least that's what I'm trying to do with mine. I can't go till about daylight but going to try to run one then. Hope to find a cat but a good grey fox will do.

[Dan Edwards]

I have no answer for you cuz besides deer I pretty much don't break my dogs off anything. Hell I've even been guilty a time or two at night of maybe letting a few young dogs be naughty up til I seen it then I couldn't stomach it anymore. So what I'm sayin is run it all, its more fun that way.

[macedonia mule man]

Dan, sounds like me and you are hauling the same dogs.

[southern fox]

I run nothing but grey fox and bobcat with the same dogs, wont run a red, or a coyote or deer, or anything else a step, it aint real hard to break them like that, actually kinda easy for me cause I have never actually had dogs that would run the off game, so the younger ones usually wont be to terribly bad about trashing on that stuff, think the biggest problem I have with young dogs is messing with coons, something about a cat and a coon with sent that's something alike, expecially if one runs a lot of cat, this time of year I pefer to run the grey fox being the aligators are so bad here, cat will go and hang where there at but the fox don't want to get wet, and all my stuff is running dogs, no tree blood in them

[southern fox]

as of breaking a dog off reds ! the sent is a lot different I would think, being the red is a member of the dog family and the grey is from the cat family! to totally different sents, a broke dog I would think is a must, or find a track put him on it and fry him till he is under the truck onn a red, or find a fox pen with nothing but greys and run him on that only and don't let the young ones run reds! breaking sents will work making him smell it all the time, then he cant smell one when one goes hunting, but I believe the best way is to have broke hounds that don't run them, and when one is messing with something and the bropke dogs are trying to get in the box fry them young ones till there under the truck, then there learning to things don't mess with what ever it is there messing with , and to come at the same time, cause im hollering and blowing the horn when im frying them, nothing makes me any madder than to have trashy dogs, I don't go to run trash

[Jkohnke]

Southern fox I've always been told by the old timers that one is a canine and one is a feline. But I was told different a few years ago. Was old they are both dogs (canine family). Didn't believe it so I asked a few biologist and did some studying. And they are indeed both reconized as dogs. Was told that the misconception was with the semi retractable claws and climbing ability of the grey he was always thought to be a cat. That's not the way science and biologist reconize them any way. They are both listed as canines. Maybe someone can show me different because I would like to believe my granpaw was right but everything I study on them say their dogs.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

Southern fox I've always been told by the old timers that one is a canine and one is a feline. But I was told different a few years ago. Was old they are both dogs (canine family). Didn't believe it so I asked a few biologist and did some studying. And they are indeed both reconized as dogs. Was told that the misconception was with the semi retractable claws and climbing ability of the grey he was always thought to be a cat. That's not the way science and biologist reconize them any way. They are both listed as canines. Maybe someone can show me different because I would like to believe my granpaw was right but everything I study on them say their dogs.

I know someone that has had quite a few as pets or has rehabilitated/release. Few of them died of FELINE distemper. Was told by the Vet to give them both canine and feline vaccinations. Always wondered if Ferrett vaccines would work on them or coon better than canine/feline? I work as a Vet Tech, but most Vets don't seem to know.

I think Reds would be closer to a coyote and Greys are closer to a catdog, LOL

[perk]

Of course you can break them from running a red, I run both red/grey with my hounds, but I have seen many hounds who never would run a red fox. just need to know your dogs and know whats happening. Seems you could go to a fox pen and correct them on reds, as most pens seem to be stocked with the red foxes. But they are absolutely different animals, and dogs absolutely can decipher the difference between the scent.
Perk

[Dan Edwards]

Dan, sounds like me and you are hauling the same dogs.

[dwalton]

Of course you can break them from running a red, I run both red/grey with my hounds, but I have seen many hounds who never would run a red fox. just need to know your dogs and know whats happening. Seems you could go to a fox pen and correct them on reds, as most pens seem to be stocked with the red foxes. But they are absolutely different animals, and dogs absolutely can decipher the difference between the scent.
Perk

Perk: Well said "just need to know your dogs and what happening" You can teach a dog any thing you want to do or not to run if you are willing to take the time and know what is going on out there. Some dogs never make a good hunter and some are hard headed but so are some hunters. So it should work out all right. Dewey

[Liz ODell]

I think the simplest answer I give people for this type of question is 'if a dog can't smell the difference between similar species then how can they tell the difference between different dogs/humans etc.?', I mean we ALL know they can do that, if a dog can be trained to detect cancer cells in a urine sample they can darn sure be trained to do just about anything.
You could even train your dogs to only run one particular animal in an entire species population if thats what you really wanted.
As far as foxes, both red and grey are canines BUT grey foxes are genus Urocyon, they are one of only 2 foxes in that genus, the other being the Channel Island Fox.
Red fox are genus Vulpes, the genus of 'true' foxes and the genus most fox belong to, they cannot cross breed with anything other than members of their own genus and even then it's iffy.
Coyotes are genus Canis and also cannot cross with either Urocyon or Vulpes (nor would they even smell even remotely like either)...

[scrubrunner]

Free cast hounds at night in my neck of the woods where there are gray and red fox it takes quite a while to determine which one you're running. It could be a wandering gray that heads for home when jumped, I've had a lot of greys that would line out for a mile or more than settle in some thicket and run for hours on 40 acres.unless you can see the game on a crossing or they cross a road where it's sandy enough to find a track it's just hard to tell which fox you are running till it establishes a pattern of running the open or the thick, by then you've been running it for an hour or so. Thats the only reason I said I wouldn't want the task of breaking gray fox hounds off of red fox. Heck I've seen several gray fox races end with a caught bobcat at the end! If you know your hounds good enough and one runs one fox better than the other you can tell right off sometimes. Southern Fox, I don't get to run many cats mostly gray fox but I've never had a problem with my hounds messin with coons. My biggest problem is every now and then I'll get one that just will not leave the rabbits alone especially if good game is scarce. I probably shouldn't have said that now I know I'll be trashing on coons befor the week is out.LOL

[Jkohnke]

I would like to see a pack of dogs that were broke off reds and only run greys. Would have to prove that one to me. Not saying someone doesn't have that but I would have to see it to believe it.