New Mexico Lion/ no season.

[JTG]

http://m.santafenewmexican.com/news/leg ... l?mode=jqm

[Mike Leonard]

This is going to be a very controversial subject and I must say it wil be a fight either way.

Most people think this is an outlandish idea to eliminate the big game status of the cougar and just allow them to be hunted like varmint predators. However very few stop to think that the largest state with a growing cougar population I might add,Texas, has always classified cougars as such.

I have hunted lion and traveled all over this state and met with outfitters, predator control agents, ranchers and other sporting groups and all have varied opinions of the lion.

I might say that in most sections south of I-40 there would be virtually no change in the kill numbers if this was instituted. Most of this is bare ground hunting and the bulk of the lion which have been harvested have been on hunts conducted by specialized outfitters who are equipped to hunt lions in the traditional southwest fashion. Horses and mules and a lot of days on the trail. Other lions are killed there for sure many who have been killing livestock are taken by snares, traps or simply shot. A small percentage of these are even reported, it is just a matter of taking care of business.

In the higher elevation in the northern part of the state the cougar kill would very likely drop off even from the small numbers that are reported today. Why you ask? Well once the cougar loses it's big game trophy status few outside hunters will give New Mexico a thought when it comes to booking a hunt for a possible trophy book lion. Human nature tells people that things that are not attached to a high price tag must not be worth buying. So outfitters are going to have a harder time charging a client several thousand dollars to come out and get a shot at a critter they don't even have to buy a license for. After a little time they will say well they have killed all the lions in new Mexico let's book our hunt in Idaho or some other far off place. Trying to sell a good lion hound in New Mexico will be hard because it is hard to cough up $5-7 grand for a dog to go chase somthing nobody wants to pay you for to hunt.

So you see this is a deal with many little quirks attached.

Probably the only one who won't care either way is the lion. That cryptic, silent stalker of the lonely deserted places will continue to leave his scrapes along the high saddles of New Mexico long after these politicians are gone..............

[Big N' Blue]

Very well put Mike.

[JTG]

Mike,

I know what you mean, when you said "taken care of business" because most of the time when I tree a lion, that is what I am doing, otherwise I leave them for another day. Even if there was a season here in Texas, once something goes to killing stuff on a ranch, it's end is near. Many of the ranchers I know go by that thought, you are free to come and go as long as you do no harm.
My thought on the growing lion population in Texas, is the expanding wild hog population and I have found lions follow the game even if its just one pasture to the next.
Lions are very hard to tree in Texas and it would be hard to kill them out, even if you wanted to.
I hunted very little in NM, but it has not made any difference here in Texas.

[Mike Leonard]

JTG,

Thanks for you input. You know you mentioned the expanding wild hog problem being one reason the lions has adequate food supply just about anywhere in the Lone Star State he cares to wander.
All these do gooders here in New Mexico have petitioned hard to shut down our coyote hunting contests and tried to paint the predator caller as a bad guy. On our ranch we have enough coyotes that if we don't work on them hardly a single little cute spotted bambi fawn deer can make it to weaning age. I mean they run in packs and are so bold I can't hardly feed the cow dogs outside without standing guard with my shotgun. So if they ban the killing of coyotes altogether it will give even more food sources for the New Mexico cougars.

Oh I didn't know cougars would kill coyotes they say. Trust me when they run out of deer because the deer have been killed by the coyotes they will turn to domestic stock, coyotes, Fifi the housedog, and even Junior on the way to the mailbox if they are hungry enough.

I am not sure where the logic is these days? Guess I'll just go huntin......

[dwalton]

Mike I agree 100%. What is taught in our schools is that we need predators to keep everything in balance. That is a idealistic belief that the so called environmentalist believe in. Which would be great except they are forgetting one component MAN. They should make the ultimate sacrifice for their beliefs. Then the rest of us could live with a lot less people in a much better place. Rural America would pretty much remain the same, there would just be a lot of cheep housing in the cities. Dewey

[Mike Leonard]

I had on friend ask me if I thought New Mexico Fish and Game would be willing to give up the license revenue as well as the revenue that is brought into the state by hunters going on guided hunts. It is reported that some 2500 cougar licenses are purchased anually in New Mexico. Of this the great majority are resident hunters and the license fee is nominal. Probably less that 100 out of state guided hunters are taken yearly. This is an absolute drop in the bucket compared to elk and deer hunters. The Game and Fish has increased the quota limits on lion dramatically over the past several years and even gone to a year round season and still they have not really increased the cougar harvest or reached the goals they had hoped for. They are bombarded all the time by disgusted hunter who went home empty handed from their deer or elk hunt complaining about how the predators especially those nasty lions are killing all their trophy animals. Make no doubt about it they want the lion gone but their plan has not worked. Lions are just too difficult to manage to the kill numbers they want by sport hunting. Should this bill pass it will open them up to trap and snare lions at will and they may even institute a bounty system in livestock loss areas. You see where I am going with this?

Coyotes are a much bigger problem we all know but they cannot approach these on a broadbased action plan because the extent of it would break the state coffers. Yes it is that big! Once the coyote problem has reached the extent it is today only a 1080 poison program could check it on a state wide basis. And we know this was eliminated during the Nixon years and with all the enviromental changes that have taken place since then it is out of the question.
Ten of Thousands of coyotes and their potential damage make the small impact of 3-4000 cougars statewide also seem like that drop in the bucket. Nobody talks about the toll black bears take on elk calves. The bear is the state symbol and holy ground if you will so don't mess with that regardless if they kill many times more elk than cougars do. so you see it is emotionally driven but make no mistake the bottom line is all about the money.

[JTG]

Mike,
Wildlife biologist are well aware that coyotes are the main problem. I was told by a biologist, that the coyote are the most studied of all the wildlife in America.

The problem is the mindset of the people these days. Most people live in cities and they do not have to deal with varmints and they show up to vote, against the ranchers and outdoorsman way of life. Much like Mr. Dewey mentioned, they have been brain washed by the school system in both the elementary and collage levels in respect to animal rights. Having the mind blowing mindset of some of these animals being near extinct.(The hawk, wolfs and lion’s, being a good examples.) They have no problem, giving away our rights and are dead-set to that cause. They show up at Fish and Game meetings with a plan and they use professional marketing to solicit funds for the fight.

Coyotes are and always have been most of the problem, but when you have an overabundance of all varmits, like we have now, it’s devastating to small game and fawns. At this point you can only thin them out, and it’s an on-going task.

It’s a bad deal for those of us who love the outdoors and understand what lives in it.

[Gary Roberson]

There is no season or bag limit on lions in Texas on lions, we treat them just as we do coyotes. In spite of the liberal laws, there are more lions across the state than at any time of my life.
I feel the reason that there are more lions today is rather simple, there are simply less hunters, especially houndsmen. Lots of country is owned by absentee owners who don't want anyone hunting on them so it is essentially a sanctuary.
I was visiting with one of my best friends who is very active in NM politics, he says that the target is to kill 750 lions across the state, today, they are killing only 200. I guess that this is the reason that they are wanting to try something different.
Adios,
Gary

[akbruce66]

I have found where a lion killed and ate a coyote, it left a front and a hind foot and the tail as well as lots of fluffy fur. That year there were few coyote's, last summer we had lots of rain and there are mice everywhere and we can expect a bumper crop of fat puppy dogs.

[Mike Leonard]

Interesting I have found numerous coyotes killed by lions over the years, and also have had a lion bury a coyote right in the same mound with a deer. I suppose the curious coyote got a little too close and bam! Lion figures might as well save him better eating than nothing but not much I am sure. LOL!

Had a friend of mine witness a female lion kill a coyote about three years ago. He was preparing to make a call and was on his stand with good visability when he saw this coyote come trotting up the wash. He figured he would just let him get a little closer and then put the old 250 to work. All of a sudden their was a flash and a blur of action a few ki-yi's and next thing you know this female was lugging him off. He said it happened so fast you could hardly see it.

Gary yes I heard they wanted 750-800 anually. Hounds could never deliver that number especially with the drouth conditions the state has been in for years. And yes less lion hunters these days. In the north there are tons of guys with a dog box and a few hounds but most don't last long catch a few snow lions here and there but don't make much impact in the areas where lions are difficult to catch. They get tired of fighting the roads to get ahead of others like them who want to catch easy lions on the fresh snow and go home and watch the ball game. Nothing wrong with that at all but it will never deliver the numbers that the State is looking for. Even if they hire professional lion hunters as predator control agents they won't get those numbers with hounds. Once this bill is passed if it is passed you will see an active State program targeting lions who then can be snared and trapped without cause and also although you won't hear about it some will also get to enjoy a cyanide twinkie or two.