breeders influences

[larry]

I am interested in getting opinions on the breeders that have carried on from the weems stock their popular crosses and breeding practices. i am interested in the Ursus, Nabek, Salmon River, and Cascade dogs, thier origins, and how they all tie together. Ursus Rowdy, Timber, Nabek Buddy, Salmon River Penny to name a few.

[reed]

Very few will know anything about Nabek Buddy. He is from a guy that hunts and breeds for himself and doesn't care about becomeing a living legend. I am not sure who Salmon River Penny is as I have never heard that name before.

I will tell you from talking to Doc Smith, Salmon River Plotts, that the dog he looked for was Weems John. Doc thought that Weems John passed on the traits, and his offspring as well, that allowed dogs to become Bear Catching Machines.

[larry]

Not sure if I got my papers mixed up or if it is two different penny's. Either way the dog i am talking about is the Buddy X Penny. Nabek's Bear Creek Penny??? Might have had a brain fart as well, thought I saw a salmon river somewhere. Cross seems to be a major influence.

[reed]

I know who your talking about I just was razzing you a little. The dog you are talking about is Nabek Bear Mt. Penny. She is out of the Salmon River breeding. Uncle to niece out of the Salmon River Sam and Coolwater Missy cross. Best dogs that Doc ever produced acording to him. Spike was the best of the cross, or the one he thought was the best.

Give me a call I will talk to a little about all this stuff, not an expert on it but have a little idea on what your asking and why.

[Catch]

About Penny:

Penny is Salmon River breeding?

---------------------------------------------------WEEMS JOHN
-------------------------------------------HAUGS SWAMPLAND JOE
---------------------------------------------------HAUGS SWMPLND STAR
-----------------------------------SALMON RIVER SAM
---------------------------------------------------SALMON RIVER ACE
-------------------------------------------SALMON RIVER JAN
---------------------------------------------------SALMON RIVER LINDA
---------------------------SALMON RIVER BRINNY
---------------------------------------------------URSUS RAIDER
-------------------------------------------P'SENS IRON MTN CHIEF
---------------------------------------------------PL'S'NT VALLEY BELL
-----------------------------------COOLWATER MISSY
---------------------------------------------------HAUGS SWMPLND JOE
-------------------------------------------WHITE HOLLOW HAWK
---------------------------------------------------RIVERVIEW MOLLIE
-------------------NABEK BERRY PENNY
---------------------------------------------------BLUFF CREEK BOUNCER
-------------------------------------------BLUFF CREEK SARGE
---------------------------------------------------BLUFF CREEK SUE
-----------------------------------EIGHT MILE RAIDER
---------------------------------------------------HAUGS SWMPLND JOE
-------------------------------------------WHITE HOLLOW HAWK
---------------------------------------------------RIVERVIEW MOLLIE
---------------------------SAGE RIVER LIBBY
---------------------------------------------------HAUGS SWMPLND JOE
-------------------------------------------SALMON RIVER SAM
---------------------------------------------------SALMON RIVER JAN
-----------------------------------NABEK SALMON RIVER LADY
---------------------------------------------------P'SENS IRON MTN CHIEF
-------------------------------------------COOLWATER MISSY
---------------------------------------------------WHITE HOLLOW HAWK


Salmon River Ace & Linda came from others. Sam is only Salmon River by the name from Ace & Linda. It looks to me that Penny has more Swampland then anything. Not that is a bad thing. No offense, this dog has a out standing pedigree, but to call her Salmon River breeding is kinda hard to follow.

[Catch]

The Salmon River dogs are gone. I doubt you could find one with more than 5% Salmon river breeding. The Cascade dogs are gone. Timber is gone. Check out Smithdeal Society, there is a good article on Timber.

Steve Mohr (Ursus) has more Weems old stock than any. Check out his web site about his breeding @ Ursus.com

Nebek Buddy (Larry Fogel)
................................................................URSUS ROWDY RAP
................................................NABEK MAJOR
................................................................NABEK LATER
................................NABEK JEDI
................................................................URSUS ROWDY RAP
................................................NABEK SKEESIX
................................................................URSUS MOONLITE
................NABEK MAVERICK
................................................................URSUS STAR PLOTT
................................................URSUS ROWDY RAP
................................................................URSUS TAM BURTON
................................NABEK SOX
................................................................URSUS ROWDY
................................................URSUS SYBIL
................................................................YATES BUGLE QUEEN
NABEK BUDDY
................................................................WEEMS PLOTT DAN
................................................URSUS ROWDY
................................................................BRAND SASHAY MOON II
................................URSUS RAIDER
................................................................HERDS BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
................................................URSUS JODY
................................................................WEEMS PLOTT SUSIE
................NABEK GINGER
................................................................URSUS STAR PLOTT
................................................URSUS ROWDY RAP
................................................................URSUS TAM BURTON
................................NABEK SOX
................................................................URSUS ROWDY
................................................URSUS SYBIL
.................................................................YATES BUGLE QUEEN



Ursu Rowdy & Weems Plott Susie (Susie is Weems John's mother)

--------------------------------Kidds Brindle Boy
---------------------Joey Boy
--------------------------------Kidds Sue
Weems Plott Dan
--------------------------------Smithdeals John
---------------------Greens Daisy Mae
--------------------------------Smithdeals Fly

--------------------------------Smithdeals Smokey
--------------------Nichols Stormy
--------------------------------Smithdeals Cubby
Sashay Moon 11
--------------------------------Plotts Dan
------------------- Brandenburgers Sashay Moon
--------------------------------Plotts Fanny

[Catch]

I am interested in getting opinions on the breeders that have carried on from the weems stock their popular crosses and breeding practices. i am interested in the Ursus, Nabek, Salmon River, and Cascade dogs, thier origins, and how they all tie together. Ursus Rowdy, Timber, Nabek Buddy, Salmon River Penny to name a few.

Now how this all comes together is this. Little to none Salmon River, little to none Cascade. Nebek (Larry Fogel) started with two dogs along time ago. He kept the line tight for years and then crossed out to Penny. He has added Ursus (Steve Mohr) Girl & Ursus Zeb. Nebek dogs may be heavy in Ursus but Larry's dogs are Nebek breeding. Larry wants his style of dog and breeds for that.

Steve Mohr's web site will tell you more than I can. The only thing his site does not say is the old Weem's blood he has added. Just like Larry Fogel, Steve Mohr's dogs are his, he breeds for his style of dog.

[larry]

thanks for the replies. arrows all seem to point in the same direction, sounds like alot of breeders got their seed stock from Steve Mohr's house back in the day. It's hard not to notice that it is pretty impressive that alot of the "famous" plott dogs of the days past came directly from Ursus (Timber) or were bred out of them after being picked up by another breeder. Bluff Creek influence is hard to miss as well, Bouncer seems to pop up alot. Sounds like alot of the Salmon river was based around John. Does anyone have any insight to where John's blood can best be picked up at since the Salmon river dogs are a thing of the past?

[reed]

I would say more out of Everett Weems yard but that is all opinion. As for Timber I didn't know that he had any Ursus in his pedigree. I thought it had mostly Cascade dogs?

Another question I have is how many generations does it take to be a persons breeding. Is it the selection process of the individual making the cross? He has his evaluation process and the dog has to meet certain criteria, that may be different from the guy he got it from. So say Gunny meets my criteria but not yours and Gunny came from your house. I decide to breed Gunny but you concider the dog a cull, is this dog really half your breeding or mine? Gunny wouldn't meet your standards but is a top dog in my opinion.

Catch, I might have to disagree with the 5% of Salmon River still being around.

[larry]

I was referring to the generations after Weems I guess, but I agree with ya at that time period.

[reed]

How do you determine whos breeding is who's, the kennel name in front of the dog or the genetics behind the dog?

[bearhntwi]

I think you have to go with genetics,I have a Shamrock bred dog from Joe Hudson,I put my kennel name on her but had no hand in her breeding,but the crosses and breeding i've done since owning her I feel is my line,because like you said you breed for the traits you like.

[rocket]

I feel that once a dog has three generations of the crosses you've made behind them, you can call it your line or stock of dog. Some breeders cross every popular line of dog together and slap their kennel name on the results.