Early starting hounds

[twist]

One thing we all see is a must in making a true bobcat hound is BRAINS all the other stuff (early or late starting) is just what one prefers. Very good info here guys this is what I was wanting to read. I have had many guys and gals call over the years inquiring about pups and at least 90% always want early starters so this just got me on this topic. thanks, Andy

[Warner5]

Raising a pup can be delicate, Some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.

I agree with the type of young dogs Dewey looks for when wanting cat dogs. Aggression in a young dog can make them come across as superior or more impressive to people that want to see action from a young dog. For me when it comes to bobcat dogs, the less aggressive litter mates will more than likely pass up the more aggressive one's by 1 to 1.5 years old. I like the quiet, curious one's. They work for me. Good topic. John.

I like an early starting pup, but to me early starting can just be that the pup just alway's seems to be at the right place's at the right time. JMO. John.

[Tim Pittman]

x2

Raising a pup can be delicate, Some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.

I agree with the type of young dogs Dewey looks for when wanting cat dogs. Aggression in a young dog can make them come across as superior or more impressive to people that want to see action from a young dog. For me when it comes to bobcat dogs, the less aggressive litter mates will more than likely pass up the more aggressive one's by 1 to 1.5 years old. I like the quiet, curious one's. They work for me. Good topic. John.

I like an early starting pup, but to me early starting can just be that the pup just alway's seems to be at the right place's at the right time. JMO. John.

[festus]

This has been a very informative topic alot of years of experience and knowledge shared here, thanks twist for getting it started.

David, one thing I have learned is when you, Mr. CJC, Mr. Dewey, and a select few others on here have something to say I am going to be first in line to hear what you are saying. You guys make this forum a great place for learning from experienced houndsmen who tell it like it is.

[david]

Raising a pup can be delicate, Some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.

I like the above quote a lot. It is a whole topic in itself but I think it applies and gets at what has been on my mind as we discuss this. The only thing I would add to the quote is the word "maybe" after the phrase "time will heal"...

We just cant know if time ever brings them back to what they might have been without the situation installed "learning disability". I am sure that is what Dewey was talking about protecting them from by not working them too hard as youngsters.

I have found that the automatic dogs are far less delicate. There are those I have had that seem to overcome almost anything and still make a great combination dog.

I have learned that there are dog men who will end up culling any thing other than this type dog. The sad truth that I have watched closely is that they can not make a dog of any other type of dog. It does not take long before it is the only type of pup they will keep because they recognize their traits as the ones that "make it". They use exactly the same methods of training for every pup and if a pup can handle it, he makes it. If a pup can not handle that particular style of training, he is a cull to this man. And, by the time this man is done with the dog, he is in fact a cull. The pup has endured too many of what Warner 5 called "major negative effects on the pup mentally". Even in the hands of a trainer who understands that every dog is different and should be handled accordingly, this pup might not be able to come back and make a hunting dog. The mental and emotional damage is too severe.

What I have noticed is that the men with this style of puppy training were bear hunters at the beginning and at the core. So, the theory I was alluding to earlier is that the type of dogs that do well with these men are more likely to make good bear dogs than good bobcat dogs. These might be men that love bobcat hunting, but they are "bear dogging" their puppies. I think "bear dogging" a puppy is going to eliminate some of the dogs that would have made good bobcat dogs.

Raising a pup can be delicate, Some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.

There is so much knowledge about animals that apply to humans and vice-versa. Much of the knowledge available about the brain applies to both. We know that the brain forms neuro-pathways through usage. We know that electrical impulses are fired down those neuro pathways. If they are not used, or not called for durring childhood, they become unavailable. It can be hard, if not impossible to tap into pathways that have not been used when the child is young. So we constantly expose our children to sounds and sights and taste and touch and all the things that stimulate those electrical impulses to travel those neuro pathways; to form new ones and to keep the old ones open. And we protect our children from experiences so negative that normal functioning in life becomes impossible for them. There are things we dont want in their brain because they can not process it correctly yet.

I do not see how a puppy's brain could possibly be any different. Of course we all have different experiences, and I can only draw from mine. But in my experience it is much easier to ruin a pup that has the potential of becoming a good bobcat catcher. It is much easier for his brain to never happen, or to be so negatively effected that he can not over come it.

We know of a border collie that learned 300 words. He knew the meaning of the word by the sound of the word just as you and I do. This is similar to the understanding of a child at a certain stage of development. I think we as bobcat hunters are drawn to the dogs whose brains work a little more like the human brain. And maybe we are a little less drawn to the brain of a dog that could overcome a cookie cutter training system and bite a bears testicles on a regular basis.

I have had dogs that made good bobcat dogs that started early. I like that and I want that. But even those dogs were more sensitive and quirky. In the hands of a great dog man that i know of, there is no doubt in my mind the dogs would not have "made it". I think with these dogs "early starting" might be more a function of the dogs environment (handling, training, physical care, mental stimulation, emotional protection) and a little less a function of the dogs genetic make up.

Having said that, I know there are very great bobcat dogs that never had the type environment I would try to give one of my puppies. There are very great bobcat dogs that grew up in a pen and were never touched until old enough to be put into the pack. And I think, and hope, that there will be more of these as people keep focusing on breeding better bobcat dogs. Through selective breeding over many years their genetic pull has become more specific to bobcats and less specific to coon, bear, or fox. It makes life a little easier for all of us. Thanks to all those who are influencing breeds in this direction. You have given up a lot for it, I know.

Raising a pup can be delicate, Some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.

[sourdough]

Early starting hounds take the guess work out of whether or not you are going to end up with a subject that you can catch game with. Like others have said waiting two years is a long time to wait and the chance of ending up with something is only dictated by knowing the line your hound is out of and being patient, letting that animal mature.

When people talk about early starting, what type of behavior is that pup showing? Forced repetitive behavior stimulated by you or natural behavior? My opinion is that there have been a lot of very good hounds that could have been much more than they ended up as because the handler did not hold them back and allow them to mature in mind and body.

I let my pups run loose here at my place, I know that most don’t have this type opportunity, but it does give me a good chance to observe them and see their progression. I have a great study ground to interpret the positive and negative points of each hound that is raised here. Some pups exhibit tremendous pray drive at an early age, giving the barn cats reason for apprehension while out on a stroll and this type of pup does look impressive. Is this early starting? I know that these pups are the first to catch someone’s eye and can be sold easily. I have my own thoughts on the pups I keep and what it takes for them to be above average in the skill set needed to catch the game I pursue. Has anyone ever seen a 3 month old pup cold trail? And if so how would you go about raising that pup? I ask this question with the hopes of getting serious answers. Instinctive pray drive and natural ability are like night and day. Some on here know what I am talking about.

No one has stated an age, on early starting. Is it 8 weeks to 3 months, 3 months to 6 month, 6 to 8 months, or 8 months to a year? With the many breeds of working dogs out there is it not possible to breed hounds that exhibit extraordinary “Traits” as early as any other type of working dog?

sourdough

[al baldwin]

David I say this with respect, but, I feel you & some others tend to over antilize a lot about dogs. Training Dogs is not rocket science, if so I woiuld have never trained one, will blow own horn and say I have managed to train some very staight hounds. Of course, important to reconize young dogs have different personalties & what training works for one may not for another. You seem to have a dislike for hunters who have bear hunted & dogs whose ancestors were bear hunter. Most of the bear hunters I/ve known were just people who really liked to hunt with hounds & as smart as cat hunters, just a little tougher than most cat hunters. And one used his hounds for bear, cat & coyote with very good success on all. Seems to me a hunter like that would get respect from most hound hunters If I have misread you please correct me. More than one dog has been praised as terrific cat dogs on this forum & I know for sure thier very close ancestors were used for bear & fox. And have been told they were better on bear than cat. Would also bet if one traced far, would find a lot of coon dog blood. I can only speak for myself, but know for sure I/VE taken shy dogs that some felt should be culled and made nice dogs out of them. True some of those may not have hunted for a hunter with a rough hand, even after trained. David the best hound trainer in the world can only direct a hound in the right direction, the dogs ability to made a good balanced hound that excells at catching desired game has to be bred in and will rise to the top if giving the proper exposure. Phil Jackson could not have won all those NBA Championships if he had not been given great athletes. Thanks Sincerly Al B aldwin

[twist]

sourdough, The pups I have been raising for the most part start trailing rabbits at around 4 month of age and by the time they are 8 months they are starting to trailing with the older dogs ( not just running behind babbling) and also treeing not because they see the old hounds doing this because they know there is something there. I have been starting 1 or 2 pups a year and because of the early starter pup I can have 2 to 4 dogs on the way to becoming well started cat dogs at the end of 2 years rather than waiting for a couple years to see if a dog is even going to make the grade. jmo Andy

[sourdough]

Andy, are those pups trailing those rabbits to catch at four months? Or are they site racing them a short distance before they try and find them with their nose?

Al, made a good point about the difference in hunter/handlers and that is some men just have a way of getting the most out of a dog and it is not just about exposer, as much as it is about the bond and relationship the handler has with their hounds. I have a female walker that I would rate up there as one of the most talented hounds I have ever owned, but I could never sell her, not because there is not enough money to buy her, it’s that no one could get out of her what she has offered to me.

Genetics had very little to do with this hounds actions and the way she is, in fact if I never had to get her around people, there would be no sign of anything wrong. She was given to me at six months old and had I not drove five hours, to retrieve her, I would have never brought her home. This hound was a great example of what warner5 stated “Raising a pup can be delicate, some life lessons that might seem simple and minute to you or I, can have major negative effects on the pup mentally. Almost giving them a temporary learning disability that only time will heal.” I am glad I gave her time to know me.

We have a major influence on the pups we make from the second they hit the ground and it doesn’t stop there, our interaction up to weaning is as important to any dog as our own children. For those that stay at our place it becomes a fine balance of understanding of what is right and what is wrong before they’re put into a hunting situation regardless of their expressed talent. In my opinion the early starters are only bound by their own immaturity to handle the stresses put on them to early and we tend to through them in to the fire thinking they can handle the heat.

I will use this as an example of what I am saying. How many little league pitchers have shown big league talent at the little league world series that we have never seen in the big leagues? It’s hard not to throw those talented all-stars into the fire, rooting them on with praise and forcing them to compete because of their shown talent, but just like that twelve year old little league all-star they never make it to college ball let alone the big leagues.

Early starters, I can’t praise enough, but let’s give them an education first before we call them up from the bull pen to take the mound!

sourdough

[david]

Al Baldwin, I enjoyed your note to me above and will try to respond.

David I say this with respect, but, I feel you & some others tend to over antilize a lot about dogs.

First thing I will say is you are a wise man. I have seen you say things about yourself that go something like "I am not that smart, but..." The fact is, you are extremely insightful and wise. I am sure you can see into a dog the way you see into me and others you have seen into. That is how I know you are a good dog man.

I do over analyze. I could write a full page on how i have analyzed you. I cant help it, and I beleive it has a genetic foundation. Being able to analyze a situation or a dog or a human is a gift. I beleive I have been given that gift. "Over analyzing" would be a gift taken out of balance. I have that too. For me it is never enough to know what a dog or cat or person does, I have to know why. I think knowing "why" would have made me a good breeder but I have never found dogs I thought were good enough to breed.

I also seperate by "different" which is another gift until it is taken out of balance like i do. People who seperate by "different" always see what is "off, wrong, or missing". That is what I see in a dog, and that is what I see in myself. People who sort by "same" always see how beautufully everything fits together. Usually in a marriage you will have one of each, and they balance each other. I have no one to balance me except you. So thanks alot.

You seem to have a dislike for hunters who have bear hunted & dogs whose ancestors were bear hunter. Most of the bear hunters I/ve known were just people who really liked to hunt with hounds & as smart as cat hunters, just a little tougher than most cat hunters. And one used his hounds for bear, cat & coyote with very good success on all. Seems to me a hunter like that would get respect from most hound hunters If I have misread you please correct me. More than one dog has been praised as terrific cat dogs on this forum & I know for sure thier very close ancestors were used for bear & fox. And have been told they were better on bear than cat. Would also bet if one traced far, would find a lot of coon dog blood.

I could write a book in response to that paragraph. In fact, I pretty much did, but eventually eliminated many of the chapters just because they were too negative. One major difference that pretty much changed everything for me is when i moved to an area where the bobcats had to be stopped on the ground if you wanted to consistently catch them. I have not seen one single great bear dog that could consistently do it. I have hunted with a number of top bear dogs that could come no where near doing it. The exception is the "catching snow" when anyone's coon hound could do it.
Again, I could write you a book, and you would not like it so I will spare you and everyone else.
I will ask you your definition of "tougher" though. I could write a few paragraphs in response to that as well, but will spare you.

I am sorry you edited out the part about me being a Christian. I know you edited it for friendly reasons. But I wanted to respond to that any way. Please don't blame Jesus for the way I am. I know you were not, but just want you to know that I am not a follower of Christ because I am so good. I am a follower of Christ because I am
a very imperfect human being. I follow him because I need him to save me from hell. Don't blame Jesus for the darkness you see in me. Thank him for the darkness you do not see in me. You would see it much more clearly without his influence in my life.

I can only speak for myself, but know for sure I/VE taken shy dogs that some felt should be culled and made nice dogs out of them. True some of those may not have hunted for a hunter with a rough hand, even after trained.

I am not sure what i said that caused this response. I too have taken shy dogs and made excellent hunting dogs out of them. I might even go so far as to say some of the best hunting dogs I ever saw would appear shy to a stranger. There are very intellegent dogs that were shy as well. I think knowing the difference between a stranger and your master may be a sign of intelligence. Any dog I ever hunted or owned with Al Renick blood in it appeared shy. It would be hard to find a better game catching dog than those from Al's line. I learned long ago, however, that I do not enjoy that type of dog as much. Life is short. I would rather spend it with dogs I enjoy the most. I can catch game with dogs that are not shy, so I do. If I had to give up a few cats in order to hunt dogs I really enjoy being around, I would give up the cats. But I dont even have to give up the cats, so I wont fool with a shy dog in most cases.

David the best hound trainer in the world can only direct a hound in the right direction, the dogs ability to made a good balanced hound that excells at catching desired game has to be bred in and will rise to the top if giving the proper exposure. Thanks Sincerly Al B aldwin

I could not have possibly said it better Al. I agree 100%. If I could have just said that, I would not have had to waste so much space and time for everyone. You pretty much said it all. Great post and full of good insight. I look forward to meeting you some day.

[twist]

Thanks, festus. sourdough, they are sight chasing at first but with a month of this they are usually trailing to eat it with all nose power. I am also very fortunate to be able to leave them run loose and I am a firm believer this help them learn the ropes earlier, they are exposed to just about everything at a young age. Andy

[al baldwin]

David my tougher statement comes from hunting with my mentor, he believed a hound job was to bay a bear, from a safe distance. Not get in and try to eat a bear up. His job was to get to that bay up & do his part. Most cat hunters I/ve kwown would not have been as ambitous as he. And in general most true bear hunters I/ve known have been rather tough individuals. Never considered myself tough enough to be a true bear hunter. I sure believe those hounds of his would have caught thier share of those cats you talk about on the ground. I witnessed numerous coyotes those dogs caught on the ground. Statement about training some shy hounds, was to say even tho I did some bear hunting, both my mentor & I had the ability to work with different dogs. Even tho my mentor was one tough individual any dog that got culled at his place was never destoried. I/ve known him to feed a dog for years after he decided it lacked the traits for hunting. Suppose you must have hunting with a different strain of bear hound. Thanks Al Baldwin

[pegleg]

You fellows covered a lot of ground there. I have a thought ill try to make clear. The english pointer for the most part is a preprogrammed bird locating machine. Most are hardly shining personalities. Now labs play games interact socially and our happy doing a multitude of jobs. Hounds can be just like this. Then you add the variables of size and age of interest to it and the whole equation gets more complicated. I have never had a hound take two full years to show prey drive. And I've owned some strains that were expected to mature late. If they didn't show interest by then they just never did. On the other hand I've had a few quick starters fizzle. One female had me and several others expecting a super star TRAILING and treeing on her own very young age. Just weaned and working house cats and squirrels on her own. I didn't handle her much different then the litter mates. Maybe giving her more hunting time but not much I rotate very regularly. But at four months she was a fire ball on coon and cat. I started all my pups on coon at the time. She was always striking and trailing and treeing ahead of the others. at six to eight months some of her littermates were catching up and while they weren't as showy or polished were doing the work. The next season started as expected her firing on all 8 it seemed perfectly. Then I remember the track perfectly it was a traveling cat that we struck after a rain the trail was slow but steady as clock work we trailed it miles with her leading and finally it was getting hot and only her and my old female were moving it I figured it was a lost cause but let them trail as we were nearing a change in terrain. It was a complete loss however. She went backwards so far she would barely show interest in a fresh track. I kept that female til she died of old age and she was a hit or miss cathound. Somedays she'd contribute others she was nothing but a observer. I've seen a few others similar. On the other side my very best bobcat hound started early and never missed a beat getting better every track she ran. I must admit I'm always concerned with a real early starting pup. Even though I've seen just as many make it. I have my size preferences to. But its not a requirement at all just a preference. So back to the method of a dogs hunting. I like a dog that is more a lab or is able to show its desire to hunt and think. But I know hunters who that type of hound just won't work for. I believe you can get the best from a semi sensitive hound with brains and drive over the automated dog. Now this isn't saying they have different genetic desire or drive it's the extra learning these dogs are capable of that makes the difference. To me anyway

[pegleg]

This is one of those topics everyones spent plenty of time thinking over. I have plenty of respect for old cat hunters they had it harder then we do in many ways but easier in some important ones. Most folks have a pet or favorite rifle,shotgun,or pistol and while it might not really be the best they know ever little thing about it and can make it shine. Those older houndsmen had fewr options in hounds and got to know their chosen strains inside out and I believe this gave them a advantage over the guy today who has three or four strains represented in his kennel. Each dog is a individual first and a genetic package second and knowing the genetics explains a lot about the individual. The downside is they may have honestly been working with second class hounds. But they knew enough about them to help overcome the weaknesses. How many times have you seen a experienced hunter not give a new strain pup a full and fair chance even though that was their original intent in acquiring it? I know of a few twenty year plus disciples of a certain strain change could turkey after being blindsided by a different strains abilities only to struggle for a period trying to adjust to their new line even it being superior by admission. Boy they didn't start like I thought they would! Or they sure are trashy to begin with. Hard headed boogers! Etc. Yet its a trait that apparently if handled correctly develops into a better hound. This has given rise to some semi false statements or convictions on some folks behalf. They will state and firmly believe one line of thought about a behavior or trait that has to be in order for a hound to ever succeed. Now it might be absolutely true and correct in the one line they hunt but false in another. We are seldom as thoughtful or open minded as we would like to think of ourselves as being. I have a huge gripe with our ancestors laziness in separating the breeds by color alone. There's so many other more important distinctions the separation of breeds should be made on its embarrassing to label a dog Bluetick, walker etc. When cougar/lion hound , bobcathound would be far more beneficial
Even if it happened to be a cross between the great polar opposites of snow dog and dry ground
Lol. to me a genetic preference in game species chosen by a dogs ancestors is of more import then simple color phase. How many times have you seen pups advertised as pure color and maybe both parents are good cat dogs but ones ancestors are proven line breed bear/coon/coyote/foxhounds? Then through in the many style differences and its amazing they turn out the number of successes they do. So I guess the answer is early or late starting I prefer line bred dogs. I have only owned a few Good dogs that weren't like to like bred pups. And one may have been as I knew nothing of the parents. Every dog has a fault maybe its stranger shy or its a tree climber. But if you KNOW that's a distinct possibility in advance its much easier to mitigate. Ok I took away enough space from someone who might have something relative to share

[CRA]

We have a major influence on the pups we make from the second they hit the ground and it doesn't stop there, our interaction up to weaning is as important to any dog as our own children. For those that stay at our place it becomes a fine balance of understanding of what is right and what is wrong before they’re put into a hunting situation regardless of their expressed talent. In my opinion the early starters are only bound by their own immaturity to handle the stresses put on them to early and we tend to through them in to the fire thinking they can handle the heat.

It’s hard not to throw those talented all-stars into the fire, rooting them on with praise and forcing them to compete because of their shown talent, but just like that twelve year old little league all-star they never make it to college ball let alone the big leagues.

Early starters, I can’t praise enough, but let’s give them an education first before we call them up from the bull pen to take the mound!

sourdough

Sourdough, I liked your post, well thought out as always.

I believe you can get the best from a semi sensitive hound with brains and drive over the automated dog. Now this isn't saying they have different genetic desire or drive it's the extra learning these dogs are capable of that makes the difference.

Pegleg, This is an outstanding way of putting something so important into just a few words. Well put!